The Work of Warriors

Kim Rapach (00:10.102)
Okay, should be good to go.

Joe (01:22.143)
Hey, I see you.

Kim Rapach (01:23.726)
Is it working?

Joe (01:26.087)
Now I can hear you too. We're doing it. Look at us.

Kim Rapach (01:28.908)
You can hear me. And you can see me. can't see you. I mean, I can hear you. So just a second. Let's try that.

Joe (01:30.249)
can hear you. And I can see you. you can't hear me. Hold on.

Joe (01:42.857)
Can you hear me?

Kim Rapach (01:44.238)
I can. I'm gonna turn it up though. Let's try that.

Joe (01:51.591)
in here and see you clearly.

Kim Rapach (01:53.452)
Okay, perfect. You're just a little faint. So I don't know if maybe your microphone could be just a little closer to you.

Joe (01:59.655)
Yeah, or I want to make sure that it's on the right microphone here. Hold on one second.

Kim Rapach (02:02.924)
Okay.

Kim Rapach (02:13.324)
Nope, I lost you.

Kim Rapach (02:18.73)
It could be.

Let's see, let's try that. Cause it could be my speaker too.

Nope, not that one. How about this one?

Kim Rapach (02:34.029)
No.

Joe (02:36.927)
Can you hear me?

Kim Rapach (02:40.024)
speaker...

Kim Rapach (02:45.72)
hearing you at all, I'm switching. I'm switching back and forth. So it's just, it's just, I'm just testing which one's better.

Joe (02:52.018)
Okay, no problem.

Kim Rapach (03:00.046)
try one more thing.

Kim Rapach (03:05.294)
about that.

Joe (03:06.399)
How about now? Can you hear me?

Kim Rapach (03:07.874)
No, this one? No.

Joe (03:09.566)
Hello,

Hello, hello.

Kim Rapach (03:14.222)
Just not hearing you super well and I don't want to miss anything.

Joe (03:21.897)
Can you hear me at all?

Kim Rapach (03:25.326)
Try that again.

Joe (03:26.409)
Can you hear me at all?

Kim Rapach (03:28.274)
One more time. Shoot, now I'm not hearing you at all. Okay, one more time. This is where I was. Does that work? Now I can. Okay.

Joe (03:29.523)
Test test. Can you hear me? No. my gosh.

Joe (03:38.589)
I can hear and see you, can you hear and see me? Okay, so I've just checked my settings. It looks like it's got the right microphone set up and the green bar that shows my sound on my end is showing like loud and clear. So I'm not sure if it's my end, but are you able to hear me now?

Kim Rapach (03:52.79)
Okay, perfect.

I am and I bet I know... I have all these settings, it's like I don't even know what to do with half of this stuff, do know what I mean? It's like, can I just meet at Starbucks and have coffee?

Joe (04:04.57)
Same, yes.

Joe (04:09.255)
I know this is why we pay you Riverside make it easy for us come on.

Kim Rapach (04:12.364)
Right, right. Well, but I feel like some of it is also my husband who tries to make everything so fancy. It's like, I am not fancy. All right. I know. I'll try one more thing. Cause I can hear you. It's just, I would love it it was louder.

Kim Rapach (04:31.406)
How's that?

Joe (04:33.535)
How about now? Can you hear me okay? Test test. Can you hear me?

Kim Rapach (04:35.666)
One more time. I think this is as good as it's gonna get for me. Which is fine. It's just not like, I know I'm probably projecting I've got this big old microphone here.

Joe (04:43.579)
I can, I can.

Joe (04:48.263)
You sound great. can try taking my headphones out too and just see if the internal mic sounds better. Usually these are much clearer. These are like a nice pair of headphones, but do want me to see what that's like without them?

Kim Rapach (04:58.476)
We can try. Yeah, we can try.

Joe (05:05.584)
Can you hear me now? A lot better. Way better? I think it was my headphones then.

Kim Rapach (05:07.117)
a lot better.

Kim Rapach (05:11.926)
Okay, but now I'm echoing.

Joe (05:13.572)
now I'm echoing. hold on. think I can. There's a setting here where I can fix that though. Hang on. Okay. I need to riverside too. I you know what I haven't podcasted in like a year and a half but I did when I was and hold on I'm gonna try a different pair of headphones real quick to hang on.

Kim Rapach (05:18.634)
Okay, do you use Riverside 2?

Kim Rapach (05:29.826)
Okay, cool.

Joe (06:01.616)
Can you hear me now?

Kim Rapach (06:02.786)
Perfect.

Joe (06:04.43)
I can hear you perfect too. Is there any echo or anything?

Kim Rapach (06:05.71)
Okay. Nope. We're in business. Yay. Welcome.

Joe (06:09.434)
Look at us doing our thing. All right, cool, cool.

Joe (06:15.984)
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for your patience with me too. I appreciate you.

Kim Rapach (06:19.674)
gosh, no problem. I, you know, I think one of the first messages you sent, you were a little overwhelmed and you were taking some time for just to ease the overwhelm. And I was like, I could not love that more. Like I would rather have that message all day long than someone pushing and stressing to make a conversation happen. Right.

Joe (06:42.992)
That's how I feel, but also I was feeling like I was leaving you hanging, but also I would never want somebody to have a conversation with me at the cost of burning themselves out, but also, you know, like I wanted to connect and make sure that we made this happen. So your grace was very much appreciated.

Kim Rapach (07:00.116)
Yeah, absolutely. This is the easy part. This is the fun part. know, podcasting is just like I said, having coffee and aside from the technical issues, it's really easy. Sometimes the tech, you know, we did, we got it sorted. Sure. Tell me again where you're located.

Joe (07:12.144)
Well, we got it sorted out. We made it happen. We did it.

Joe (07:19.97)
I'm in Phoenix, Arizona on a beautiful 110 degree October day, literally, by the way.

Kim Rapach (07:27.118)
Wow, 110 in October. And I'm literally sitting here shivering in Chicago and it's probably 65, 70.

Joe (07:35.238)
This is the first time we've ever. It's always hot here. You know, we've never had it hit 110 in October. This is the first time and so it's I've lived here my whole life and this is the longest hottest summer on record and we're feeling it for sure. But I mean the whole cliche. It's a dry heat is true. We don't have any humidity, which like that makes a huge difference. But my kids sure would like to get outside and play gosh. It's been a long five months.

Kim Rapach (07:47.362)
Yeah

Kim Rapach (07:58.636)
I bet for sure. You know, I went to Arizona. I traveled there for I think four or five years in a row when I was really young. It was a graduation present from eighth grade to go see my sister who lived there at the time. And then I just went every summer after and that it's a definitely a dry heat, but it's also a punch you in the face heat. You walk outside.

Joe (08:20.228)
It is. I always feel it like when I travel even though I just go for like a day or two to like California or Denver somewhere that's like kind of colder. And like the minute you get on what's that thing? I can't remember whatever it's called the thing where you get off the airplane and you're not quite at the airport, you're walking in that little tunnel. And it just like punches you in the stomach. You're like, this is where I live. I forgot. Just getting away from it for two days. I forgot like you get used to it while you're here. But when you leave when you leave for a minute and you come back, like you said, it's like it punches you in the stomach.

Kim Rapach (08:37.218)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (08:44.923)
Sure.

Kim Rapach (08:49.678)
Yeah, yeah, I worked with a girl who lived in Arizona. And whenever she came to Pittsburgh or Chicago, I mean, she just struggled physically, like it really took a toll on her physical health, because she's, you know, lived in Arizona her whole life. So it's, it's different not to be taken lightly 110 degrees.

Joe (09:03.79)
Yeah. We're well also work, but we're cold wimps too. Like neither Chicago, like, know, like we can't handle that either, you know, so every, and I think the cold will kill you and, or give you health problems quicker than the heat will, you know, so it is brutal and it sounds crazy, but I think it's, it's more bearable than, know, we don't, we're not freezing out here or getting frostbite or having to shovel snow or any of that stuff.

Kim Rapach (09:10.934)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kim Rapach (09:18.316)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (09:26.56)
Yeah. Yeah. And that was that was what was hard for her was the transition to the cooler even though it wasn't there wasn't snow on the ground. But for her, she always referred to herself as like a I can't handle cold or wind.

Joe (09:36.507)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. We're like lizards over here. Exactly.

Kim Rapach (09:44.802)
That's funny. Well, I'm glad you're inside and cool. Thanks for, again, just thanks again for making time for this call. I was interested in talking to you because of what you do currently in your career.

Joe (09:51.142)
Yeah, I'm happy to be here.

Kim Rapach (09:59.98)
but also because of where you came from in your career and your story and the impact that I believe your former career had and what you're doing now. And I was wondering if you'd be willing to talk about that for a little bit.

Joe (10:15.433)
yeah, I talk about it all the time. I'm happy to share. Where would you like me to begin?

Kim Rapach (10:21.196)
Well, what was your previous career? Let's start there. And then we'll transition into what you're doing now, which is very cool.

Joe (10:27.896)
Okay, I was a police officer for four years and then I was a firefighter for a little over 11 years and those were my two previous careers. And now I teach, thank you, and now I teach resilience and suicide and addiction prevention to other first responders.

Kim Rapach (10:34.616)
Thank you for your service.

Kim Rapach (10:41.55)
Yeah, how did that, what was the bridge there?

Joe (10:45.05)
Well, I got into law enforcement young, right? Just turned 21. And so I knew I kind of wanted some excitement and no desk job, but that was not quite the right gig for me. But I left there on really good terms. just I would go run calls with these firemen who were like having fun and playing pranks on each other and getting thanked by everybody while I was like fighting with people. And I was like, you guys get paid the same amount as

I was like, wait, what am I doing over here? I stopped by their fire station to use the restroom or whatever. And they'd be like flipping burgers and playing cards with their chiefs. I'm like, how do I get in over here? And I had never thought about that ever. I had never even crossed my mind. I wanted to do law enforcement. I don't know, kind of on a whim. When you're young, you make snap decisions. I just went on a ride along with my sister's friend who was a police officer one day. And I was like,

That was so much fun. switching my major in college. I'm getting out and I'm applying to be a cop. it was just like, it's such a consequential decision that I made based on like one, three hours of a fun ride along. And so I had never really even looked into the fire department, but then working with those guys for the last, for the next few years and like, I don't know, being a cop really taught me how to handle conflict well and both when it escalated and also how to diffuse conflict and a lot of life skills that I needed, but

Kim Rapach (11:51.234)
Yeah.

Joe (12:08.154)
That is not my bag. I'm like a happy-go-lucky dude. And so I don't like tension. And I'm glad that I'm able to handle friction and conflict now. And I'm thankful for the lessons I learned. it was like, really realized, like, at the end of the day, that that more was much more in alignment with my temperament. So and also, like, our police chief and our fire chief had kind of a little friendly rivalry going. And the fire chief really liked the idea of stealing a high-performing police officer. So I had a little help getting hired there, you know. So I

I tested with the fire department and I got number one and I switched over. stayed within the same pension system in the same city. And then I kind of found my home and I really enjoyed doing that. Climbed up the ranks from firefighter to engineer, was about to get promoted to captain. And then I got injured on the job. And that was, it was really weird because it was right as I was getting promoted to captain. So like this bucket list part of my career, I had my own fire truck, I had my own crew. was like at the pinnacle.

income wise to the most money I'd ever made, just like everything was like awesome. And then I got hurt on the job and I ended up having some neurological deficits and some things where just no doctor would clear me to go back. And so it was like, instead of that promotion, I ended up retiring and it was like the very wrong time for me to retire. And so it was a struggle and I was in a lot of pain right after my injury. And my world just kind of fell apart because

I'm a pretty balanced guy and I have a lot of friends outside of the job. Like one thing that I'm lucky I didn't struggle with is like a lot of our people put their whole identity into the career. And so then when they retire or they lose their career, their whole identity is gone. I didn't have that problem. It's a big chunk of my identity, but I also had a lot of common interests and people outside the job. And I think I would have survived that transition. Okay. but after I retired, I lost two friends, one to an overdose, one to,

put, we think it's a suicide. He was drinking and driving and pulled down from a tow truck is a really ugly car accident. Two of my best friends the same year my grandma died. My dog died. Yeah, thank you. It was, it was like the year from hell. Like my grandmother died. My dog died and I'm like, I love my dogs so much that one crushed me. And I was like trying to write a eulogy for my grandma with my dog, not at my feet under my desk while I couldn't fly out to my best friend's funeral.

Joe (14:28.304)
while I was battling workers comp to get my medical care coverage while I was reconciling losing my career. And then my mom had had some cognitive stuff. She ended up passing away two years ago, but this is back in 2017. Her dementia shifted. then during that same time period, my mom stopped recognizing me and my kids. My mother-in-law died. Both of my wife's grandparents died. And so we're giving these like...

death notifications to my kids to like dads no longer firemen you can't go visit grandma because she doesn't recognize you anymore. Both all three of your great grandparents are dead your dog is dead like my little kids went from like very well adjusted we were like wife's a teacher dad's a fire captain to happy kids to like everything in their world got upended while they were like three and five years old. And yeah, so I hit I just I hit the this is like the Cliffs notes I had it was just wild my life just kind of

It happens sometimes and it happened to me really big. lost a lot of people and a lot of things all at once. And I'm a pretty resilient dude naturally and a happy guy. was totally unprepared for all of that. had nobody had ever taught me anything about emotions. I didn't understand grief. I luckily was not like a super angry or aggressive or depressed individual by nature, but like, you know, you can only cope with so much without the right tools or skills. And so

I just started really struggling and I was pushing through every day. was like, how do I get through this? And my family is just falling apart. My kids are really struggling with grief and all of a sudden started having behavioral problems because of everything that was going on. My wife started drinking because of all this, cause we all cope in different ways and nobody taught her about emotions growing up either. And her whole life was falling apart too, cause it's our shared life was falling apart. And, so like I said, this like was like,

the two years of hell, I'm condensing it into like five minutes. one day my wife and I were fighting, she was drinking, my kids had got kicked out of school, my dad was calling me for help because my mom had run away from home and was trying to get into people's cars. And I ended up trying, I had to go pick up my daughter from school because she was fighting at school. like this, like that's so abnormal for me. So like I'm dealing with all this stuff. like, I needed to get into physical therapy for my neck.

Kim Rapach (16:35.749)
my goodness.

Joe (16:49.54)
and I needed to get the relief, but I had to divert from physical therapy, go pick up my daughter. She's fighting. My dad calls me, hey, your mom is like about to get hit by a car. And she's like trying to get in people's cars. She's like full blown dementia. It's not her fault. And I'm trying to like wrangle my mom. Cars are honking. She's like cussing at me because she doesn't even recognize me. And even though she was the sweetest lady ever, dementia makes people act ugly. And so then my wife, I get home from all that and my wife and I are arguing and I, I just went.

Kim Rapach (17:09.603)
Yeah.

Joe (17:16.792)
I hit a tipping point and it was weird because I had never contemplated suicide or self harm, or even really entertained depression. I knew I was having a hard time but like, my attitude is like the police academy or the fire academy, like how do I keep pushing through this? Like that's what we do, like we push through. So every day I was like, okay, this fucking sucks. Can I cuss on here? Sorry about that. I apologize. Yeah, okay. Okay, because like it's...

Okay, I was like, this is fucked, but I'm gonna get through it. I'm gonna get through it. How do I get through this? And then all of a sudden that one day, my brain just like all the check engine lights have been going off for two years. And because I'm a dumb dude who never had any emotional training, I never got help. I just kept pushing through. And eventually your body and your brain will hit a tipping point. Everybody has a tipping point. And I hit my tipping point. And I just went into like a fugue state. I didn't even plan on

killing myself. I left the house in like a disoriented rage. I don't even remember the drive. I somehow made it to some parking lot where I'm had never been in my whole life. I'm in like this unfamiliar parking lot. And I had total physiological symptoms because like your body will shut down on you if you push your mind too far without getting the help you need. It's like your car like if you ignore the check engine light, eventually it overheats and it breaks down. And I think

gritty dudes are at a disadvantage because we can push through so hard. We push through foolishly and that's what I did. I don't judge myself. I didn't know any better, but like in retrospect, after having done a shitload of therapy and psychoanalyzing this, like I pushed way too far. I should have gotten coaching and counseling and grief work and stuff way before I just was like pulling myself up by my boots, bootstraps every day and life kept piling on. And I

Kim Rapach (18:49.538)
Yep. Yep.

Joe (19:07.61)
I just was sitting there in my car and I was like hyperventilating and I was, had hives, like my body literally was having physical responses to the emotions I was experiencing. had full blown hives, but I don't have like allergies to anything. I couldn't catch my breath. I could like feel my heartbeat. Like somebody was like punching me in the chest, like boom, boom, boom. And like my vision was getting tunneled. I was like a mess and

Kim Rapach (19:17.432)
Sure.

Joe (19:37.144)
I just felt like I had to kill myself. I felt compelled to do it. not, I kind of speak on this a lot because I think after having experienced this, I never really judged. I always felt bad for people who had friends or family members who killed themselves because it's just such a tragedy. But like you hear a lot of people judge that like, it's really selfish or whatever. I'm here to tell you that never once.

Did I ever think like, I'm going to take the easy way out. This will be easier. Fuck my family. It's like that doesn't happen. You're temporarily insane when you're overriding your survival mechanism. Like you cannot drown yourself. You'll come up for air because our deepest ingrained mechanism biologically is to survive. So when you're to the point where you're ready to override that survival instinct, your faculties are gone for the first and only time in my life. My whole faculties were gone. And,

Kim Rapach (20:14.125)
Yes.

Joe (20:33.498)
what I actually felt like was I had to kill myself. This sounds crazy, but this is just what was going on in my brain. I felt like I had to kill myself and I didn't want to, but like almost the way if your hand is on a stove is the best way can describe it you have to pull your hand off. Like I felt like it was the only way out and I couldn't sustain anymore. And so I was like almost felt like I was somebody else was killing me. Like I was being forced to do it I had my gun and I was like wrestling. I didn't want to do it, but I just

was crying and I felt like I had to like I had no choice in the matter. It's very hard to explain. And I was just crying because not only was I like not thinking like I don't care about my family, I was thinking about how much this was going to damage my family. And I felt like I'm like right here, I felt like I had no choice. But to do it and I'm like sobbing and I'm like picking up the gun putting the gun down. I'm like wrestling with this thing that I feel like I have to do that I've never even thought about doing and I don't even know.

And I'm just like wrestling with how much my all my loved ones are dead. My family is failing. Like I had this thriving family a year ago. I'm failing everybody. I can't and I'm just like I felt like I had to kill myself. And I ended up putting the gun in my mouth. And I'm just sobbing and I'm like this is it. This is how my fucking life ends. I cannot believe this because my life was so good right before I got hurt like everything was perfect. And I have my finger on the trigger and I'm like

doing it like I'm starting to put pressure on the trigger and I'm desperately trying not to but I just am like, I feel powerless to this thing. And then I caught my breath and I've been meditating for like 20 years. And I just got one big breath. I had been trying this whole time because that's like my thing. I come back to my breath. And I couldn't do it. But finally, I can create just a second of space with my breath.

And I am able to pull the gun out of my mouth. And I'm like, it's like I was under a spell and the trance was broken. And now all of a sudden there's like this enemy that I didn't even know existed this threat that I didn't even know existed. And so it's I probably if they had this on video, it looks so crazy. I don't have it on video. I'm just saying if you did it was so crazy. So I like now I'm like scared of my gun. I can't believe this almost happened. I'm like broken free of the trance. I kind of have my grounding back a little bit.

Joe (22:56.622)
And so I throw the gun in the glove box like I cannot get away from it fast enough. launched my I literally launched myself out of my forerunner like to like as if there was like somebody coming after me and I was trying to get away from them. I fall on the concrete. I'm just sobbing. I start throwing up. like, I'm just fucked emotionally. But I'm like, I know I will never kill myself in that moment because

I can't believe that that was even a threat. cannot even wrap my head around it. Every I go do these talks all over the valley here. Everybody will tell you I'm the last person you ever would have thought would have experienced something like that. I am the last person that you would have ever thought would be susceptible to that. I'm shocked by it. I know I will never do it again now that I know that it's a threat. But I still don't know like how because nothing has changed. Like you know, everything is still a mess at home. I'm still a mess. And I'm just like,

crying and praying and throwing up. I'm a mess at this point. And it's just so weird. Like a year ago, like my kids are getting awards at school. My wife is getting teacher of the year. I'm like number one on the captain's list. I'm like everything that went so from like so high to so low so quickly. And I was just in so much pain, know, emotional pain, just so much heartache. And so I was driving home and I called the counselor.

who I had seen like several years before after some PTSD stuff. And I hadn't seen him in like five or six years because I was good to go. And I left a voice and I said, Hey, Mike, this is Joey. I don't know if you remember me, but like, I don't know how this happened, but I just almost killed myself and I need help. And then I caught my next call was I call my buddy, Bradley, who's a fire captain and he lives by me. And I said, dude, I just almost killed myself. Can I come give you my gun? I don't think it's ever going to happen again, but I don't know what's up and what's down right now, you know? And he said, of course he's a big hearted dude.

I went to his house, we were just like crying and hugging and he took my gun and Mike, the counselor called me back and I ended up short story long, I told my wife like, I just almost killed myself and you're drinking a lot and our kids are failing and like, this is not obviously sustainable, like no shit in retrospect, right? But like, need help. And so

Joe (25:20.154)
We spent the next year just kind of picking up the pieces after that. And she was very brave and she checked herself into an outpatient facility and she's been sober for seven years. But not only that, she really worked through all of her childhood trauma, all of our current grief. Like she and I were both emotional, emotionally ignorant, I guess. And we both just really leaned in. And while she was at the outpatient facility,

I it was just lined up that she's a teacher of the summertime so she could go there all day. I had the kids all day I had gotten the kids into counseling. And then we were doing like yoga and meditation and grief workbooks with kids at home and I was learning about my emotions or emotions. So a lot of the stuff that I learned with my kids I learned for me too. And as firemen were like emotional children anyway, so learning how to label your emotions and put an error to your story and process grief. We all kind of learned it together.

And then I was going to like my counseling and then my wife would come home and teach me family conflict resolution and sobriety stuff. like we just like my wife and I were like, fuck it, we're going to get healthy and we're going to fix this. You know, like we owe it to our family and to ourselves and like inch by inch we did. And over the course of a year, like things started looking really different. Like everybody was still dead and I still had my job lost, but like we knew how to grieve and we knew how to communicate our feelings with each other. And our children went from like

failing to super resilient, helping their own friends because none of their parents are teaching them and they're like putting on little schoolyard workshops on emotions. Like it's just like we climbed our way out and then I don't know, I'd say like probably a year or two after that incident where I almost killed myself, we were starting to feel good again and we just kind of started socializing again because we had fallen off the radar with like our family and friends because we were drowning every day. And so it's impossible like

to say, Hey, yeah, like, my wife's drinking every day, and I almost kill myself and my kids are emotionally dysregulated. Sorry, we can't go to that birthday dinner. Like we just kind of like socializing went out the window because we were all so fucked over here. And we missed that element. And we like started reaching back out to our friends. And we started opening up a little bit and like, sharing our story just like, here's, here's why we lost touch with you. And here's why we disappeared. And here's what's been going on. And

Joe (27:38.502)
At first, it was like uncomfortable. I felt embarrassed to share that I had almost killed myself and that I had all these emotional difficulties until all of my friends started sharing their own struggles back. And then other firemen were opening up and crying to me. And my wife started, so many of her friends or husbands are struggling with addiction. And so many firemen had contemplated suicide or maybe not that far, but are really struggling. And all of a sudden I was like,

What the fuck? not the only one. I thought I was like embarrassed. I'm the only one. I couldn't believe everybody is dealing with this. So then I'm like, Whoa, how? How did my job not prepare me for this? How are all of my friends struggling and suffering in silence? How did I almost become a victim of this? So then I just started researching and I started realizing the statistics I started. That's when I started my podcast and I started going on Instagram. I had no social media. I'd never even started an Instagram account. And I just was like, well,

there's a lot of power in me telling my story here. I'm getting invited to fire departments to talk now and every time I talk, it's less and less embarrassing because there's people, it'd be 10 guys wanting to talk to me in front of each other. There's so much power and like you just share that story and it's like, okay, maybe there's two hyper masculine macho guys who don't give a shit but there's like eight in the room who want to talk and it's like, okay, this is why this happened to me so that I could do this and I can share this stuff and share these tools and I started like

taken all the stuff I learned from my wife's rehab facility and my kids emotions. And I started packaging these resources in the language of public safety. Like I started using counseling and things I learned in counseling, like, nobody wants to hear from a counselor because they haven't fought a fire or done CPR on a dead baby like we have. it's like, I'm one of you, but I'll share this stuff with you. And I'm not teaching, I'm not a shrink, but here's what worked for me. like, so then I just, kind of grew from there. And then it turned into official training because departments asked me to start doing public speaking and training. And so

That's when you caught me I was so busy because I, didn't realize I had a business on my hand. I got talked into it by like my friends in the fire union and fire chiefs who were like, you're doing all of this stuff for free. Like we need these resources. Can you make this more professional and like sell it to us? And so that's when I like got in touch with some of my friends who are in media and I really like got together with a mental health facility and I started getting my stuff validated. And now I'm doing this like on an official basis with departments, but it really just started out as like

Joe (29:57.324)
me surviving and then me sharing with my friends and then me kind of just trying to publicly speak on a topic that I felt like needed to be spoken on because how many poor kids are losing their daddies to suicide or addiction or getting screamed at because their dads don't know how to regulate their anger or how many wives are struggling. so it just kind of my journey is still unfolding and I'm still kind of trying to wrap my head around where I'm at. It blew up kind of rather quickly recently or last year. There's a huge hunger for it and

It's beautiful in that like a lot of fire departments and police departments are interested in this now, like five years ago, 10 years ago, it wasn't the case, but enough people are dead and dying. It's costing enough money and human resources that like, I don't ever go on solicit my business. I'm, I'm having to like manage my calendar for people who are calling me to do these trainings and stuff. So that's really neat. And that's how we met. So sorry, that was a really long version. That's like the, that's the story.

Kim Rapach (30:50.798)
It didn't feel long. It felt fast and intriguing and painful and beautiful all in one.

Joe (31:00.432)
Thank you for saying that and for listening.

Kim Rapach (31:02.719)
And your new wife is doing well.

Joe (31:04.986)
We're thriving. I cannot believe it. I thought we were dead in the water and we're both weird. It's this really weird thing because like I'm so sad for all of the pain that we went through and particularly my kids and my friends who died like in my family. I wouldn't I would change that if I could. I'm not dismissing any of that. But like we had to go through that to be where we're at now. Like we never were gonna.

like we kind of got like school of hard knocks PhDs and emotional maturity and emotional regulation and relational communication. And I don't neither one of us thinks we would have done that if we hadn't hit this rock bottom. So I'm, I'm not like thankful all that pain happened. But yeah, like, I shit you know, we don't ever fight. And I know that that sounds like bullshit. But like, we have really good conflict resolution skills. Now, it doesn't have to be a fight. It doesn't mean we don't have conflict. But like, we know when we're feeling

angry, depressed, we communicate it with each other. We know how to communicate issues before they stack up into resentments. We know when we need space, we like all these skills that we learned from like, being at rock bottom, like, are the reason why we're thriving now and not only thriving, but like helping so many people like we've, we have like, newfound unexpected purpose out of it. So yeah, like, we're doing awesome. My kids are too. It's great. I never thought it would happen. Honestly, I was I thought for sure like,

Kim Rapach (32:26.892)
Yeah, I'm so happy to hear that.

Joe (32:31.876)
I don't know what kids, are resilient for sure. But people say that dismissively like, kids are resilient. Like they're resilient, but they need somebody to teach them and support them through these issues. And every kid, maybe they didn't go through what my kids went through, but COVID wrecked a lot of kids. And none of my friends know how to sit with their kids and their feelings and how to listen empathetically and all this stuff. And so they're doing really well. And honestly, I am thankful for all the pain I went through because like I, I never had that.

growing up, but like, my kids know how to process their emotions. And they know they got a safe daddy to do that with. And like, that's all because of everything that I went through, you know, so it's definitely I don't know if I want to call it quite beautiful, but it is beautiful in a lot of ways, you know.

Kim Rapach (33:18.638)
Yeah, the transformation from a near death experience to a relationship that felt dead in the water to feeling absolutely hopeless and a force to end it all that you couldn't even explain to thriving is a beautiful transformation.

Joe (33:38.682)
Yeah, I'm very thankful.

Kim Rapach (33:39.938)
But I know that that didn't just happen. Like the adversity can just happen. Right. And I think that sometimes we as humans forget that because it feels so personal when it's so painful. But adversity can just happen. But having done the work that you've done, that didn't just happen. I know that took hours and hours and hours and late nights and early mornings and doing things you didn't want to do, probably individually and together.

Yeah.

Joe (34:10.244)
Yeah, a lot of work, a lot of work, but also like, for sure. And I don't want to dismiss that either because I am proud of that, you know, and I'm happy. But, I would like to inspire and encourage other dudes to do the work. And I don't think particularly in my sphere, which is public safety, we're not set up for success. Like everybody knows you need to work on your physical fitness, but nobody talks about your emotional fitness and how to do this work. And I don't know what would have happened if I had like,

I designed my training for like what I wish I would have had ahead of time. my training isn't crisis care. It's for like, if we could back it way up, like basic emotional processing awareness of these things, how to communicate feelings, how to, when you do have a struggle, how to share that with somebody, how to recognize it in yourself, mindfulness tools, like all of these things. I feel like, the adversity is going to happen. No doubt about it. It's life is going to deal every one of us adversity, but like,

I feel like we've really failed a lot of generations by not and by and I felt failed too by not even being told that these things could happen. And it's almost like you already have heart disease or diabetes is like, well, that's going to happen to some of us for sure. But like, I wish you would have told me about diet and exercise before I got there. And now like, that's the mindset I'm in on when the emotions I'm like trying to do like, personal training and diet and exercise before you need the surgeon or the doctor with emotions. And it doesn't mean that

everything will be easy, but it means that to have coping abilities and tools for when it gets hard or to prevent it from getting challenging. Like, sometimes these things are mountains, but sometimes it's these molehills that become mountains, it's these, these straws accumulate, and they, for me, they accumulate and they broke the camel's back. But there's ways we can remove those straws too, as we go about our day, whether it's not one size fits all, but like,

everybody's got to know a little bit about how to process their emotions. It looks different for everybody. But there's a million different ways to do it just like working out you can be a dancer, a boxer, a yoga person, a cross fitter, but like, working out is working out there's a million different ways to do it. But you got to work out if you want to have good cardio and good strength, like you have to process your emotions and have an understanding of your mind and your body. And what that looks like for you and at least just giving options and even just

Joe (36:28.622)
I think there's a lot of power in just normalizing having conversations like this and just saying like, hey, to each their own, not everybody needs to be like a rugged masculine dude who kicks indoors and has a lot of tattoos, but I am that guy. And also I cry and also I have feelings and also life is hard sometimes you can share space for all of that. And let me show you nobody will challenge me because I've been in the trenches with them. They know what I'm made of. And also I have an open heart and I have feelings and I just think it's like

really important for those of us who are in that demographic who have had those experiences to be fearlessly open and honest about it because it really, I think everybody, the men and their wives or partners and their kids all suffer when guys don't have examples or permission to do that or know how. I didn't know how, you know? And so that's kind of my mission too.

Kim Rapach (37:21.826)
Yeah. Yeah, well, keep going because I have so much I, you know, I'm married to a wonderful man. We have a wonderful son. I grew up around boys and I just have a heart for men. And exactly what you're talking about, you don't, you know, we don't raise men to have these tools. You know, and when you were talking about there might be two guys, you know, two super masculine guys in the room who are, you know, calling bullshit, but there's eight who want to talk.

I think like my compassion for those two guys is the world has literally taught them and shown them and proven to them that if they are vulnerable, they're going to die.

Joe (38:03.174)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (38:03.298)
right? They're gonna get their ass kicked. They're gonna get beat up. They're gonna, you know, and they're, they're nervous systems, their core memory is like, no, that's not safe. It's not that they're bad people. They just don't feel safe for very valid reasons. And so, like you said, these conversations, they're game changers. And, you know, I could take your story and, you know, kind of change a few players in a few environments that's

very similarly my story in the entertainment industry. And, you know, the other thing that I'm passionate about is we're teaching people that if you're successful, if you, you know, if you make it, quote unquote, make it whatever that means for you.

then you'll be happy and you and I have to but you've lived out this experience where you were thriving. Everything was going great. Kids were doing great marriage was great having lots of fun, know, making chief having a truck and it all blew up. And we have to think about this is a it's kind of morbid or I don't know I used to think it was negative or whatever but if I lost everything today, what would I have left tomorrow?

And it does come down to if you know, first, it's my people, but it's like, what if I don't have them? It's my resiliency, it's my gratitude, it's my determination, it's my fight for myself to help other people. And I just don't think we talk about that enough. We just think if I get that car, if I get that job, if I get on the stage, if I get the girl, whatever it may be, then everything's gonna be okay. And there's just no guarantee. And I just wish we could normalize that.

Joe (39:44.888)
man, you are really speaking my language here. That's as I was going to tell you that the work of warriors, that's warrior spirit stuff right there. You know, you hit a couple of things that are so important to me. I like, I love how you said we teach people like if you're successful, then I think it's really important that we define or redefine what successful is. Does successful mean you have X amount of money in your bank account and you can buy this car?

Well, that is what society and people who capitalize off of you spending money have taught is successful. like if you cannot cope, no, definitely intentionally, but like don't don't drink that Kool-Aid like success is being able to cope with the difficulties in life. Success is being able to have loss and bounce back because you're so resilient. Success is knowing that you gave your kids better than you got. Success is knowing that you have your integrity intact. Success.

Kim Rapach (40:21.036)
not on accident either,

Joe (40:42.626)
Success to me is knowing that if I don't ever get that car or I do love lose loved ones that my life still has meaning and purpose and that I can survive like we got to redefine success as like success meaning you're in the corporate rat race trying to get validation from other people and material things that you're going to be sick of in a moment anyways. That is not fucking success. You have been played by the system. And I don't think it's morbid to contemplate.

losing everything or everyone or your own death. In fact, I think it's very important because in those moments of reflection, that's how we figure out our alignment with what really is important and what we do determine to be successful. Like if I'm on my deathbed or I lose everybody, God forbid I lose my kids. Like, am I going to be happy with what I gave to them or like the type of human being I was or the experiences I had? Nobody's on their deathbed being like, I wish I had

a Ferrari and a Corvette like nobody says that nobody it's like, I wish I would have been able to take the mask off. I wish I would have been able to invest more time with my family. I wish I would have been able to have more fun. I wish I would have worked less. I wish I would have cared less about what other people thought like, there's like 10 things that every hospice worker will tell you they hear on people's deathbeds. Well, shit, we don't have to wait until we get there. We can think about that stuff now but marketers have determined to hijack your attention and your dopamine and your money to get you

distracted from those things. But the real world gives and takes away and you're going to experience those things. And so I think I like I truly believe like generational wealth is like a big thing we talk about like and I get that because like I grew up not having a lot of money and I sure hope that I can provide a safety net for my kids so that they can fulfill their passions without being in the rat race too. But to me like real generational wealth is teaching them

emotional maturity, resilience, happiness, coping skills, like, like that's the stuff like purpose like to live a good life that's worth living and that has this least regrets as possible. And to maintain their integrity and to find their purpose and their passion like that is fucking generational wealth. And that is like, that to me is my metric of success. If I'm doing a good job, am I am I leaving the world and my children and myself because we count to by the way, better than we found them like

Joe (43:03.31)
not did you accumulate more stuff and have a bigger bank account when you died. It's all temporary and we're all gonna die anyways. It sounds morbid but it's true. Life goes by fast even if you're lucky and you live to be 80. And so we just, I don't think we have enough of these conversations and that's why it's beautiful what you're doing and I'm glad to be here. So thank you for that.

Kim Rapach (43:24.667)
Aw, thank you. Our family mantra is leave the world a little better than we found it.

Joe (43:28.74)
I love it. I learned it from the fire department. They talk about like, leave a tool better than you found it. If you take a tool off the fire truck, make it cleaner than when you got it. And I, I've always like taken that but then used it. Like, am I leaving my kids better than I found them? Am I leaving myself my dog my house like people like right now? Are we leaving each other better than we found them? Heck yeah, we are by the way, this is a great conversation. But like it's, you know, like that's the metric of success. Not like did I

Kim Rapach (43:48.418)
Yeah, yeah.

Joe (43:54.404)
Did I get more stuff? Like what the fuck is wrong with all of us? Like that's what the metric did I did I burn myself out? Did I make myself? Did I care what other people thought about me? Let's ditch those notions and say, I think do we leave things better than we found them and included in those things are ourselves too. Because that's like guys, especially self care is like a swear word. Like, it's just like, you know, the oxygen mask on the airplane, you got to put it on if you're going to help other passengers. That is the way it is.

firetruck, you better check off your air pack or you become a victim in the fire and you're not helping anybody. Self care is not only it's a win win. It's not selfish because the more your cup is full, the more you can pour out to other people. But also like you count there's nothing wrong with saying I want to feel good and be happy and live a life worth living. We teach our men to themselves down and that if they work 100 hours a week breaking their back to

That's another thing is like to provide like we're providers. If you if you subscribe to traditional gender roles or whatever it is, I don't want to get political but like dudes are providers and guys will work 100 hours a week to provide and that is important. Like especially like if you're putting food on the table on a roof over your head, that's very valuable. But I have a lot of friends who will work a shitload of overtime and they'll say that they're providing but what they're doing is they're not providing

time and presence and ener to their kids or their w are part of our job is to not just providing money job that you actually lik hard to be at home with yo like you got to provide st you to provide a s emotions and you got to to cry on and you got to engagement like don't just

When I know what you do at the station, you like it, you're sitting on the recliner, you're running fire calls, people think you're a hero. That's fun for you, by the way, bro. You got to provide two other things. And these are just things that I don't know, like nobody ever taught us and nobody's ever modeling it. So I'm trying to like, without being forceful or judgmental, that's not it. Cause I'm trying to speak from experience. I fail on all of these things, but to also share what it looks like on the other side.

Kim Rapach (46:05.582)
Sure.

Kim Rapach (46:09.932)
Yeah, and nobody

at least for me, nobody taught us what really like what even in school, what ego really meant to know when your ego is driving your behavior, and you have a convenient narrative that I you know, I used to have as a therapist, it's a convenient narrative to say, well, I'm doing this for the good of whoever. But really, it was for me. And because it felt good. And it was affirming and it validated what was lacking within me. Right. And I think we have a lot of careers, even in entrepreneurship,

Certainly in the entertainment industry, certainly in your industry where you have to understand what your ego is and how it's forward when it is and how to how to sit back and how to get uncomfortable.

Joe (46:57.825)
you're so right. Did you ever read The Power of Now?

I can't totally have that book like totally gave me it.

Kim Rapach (47:02.06)
Yes. It was hard for me to read though. He's hard for me. He's difficult for me to follow.

Joe (47:09.368)
It is hard and I don't recommend it to a lot of people because that's the reaction I get to a lot of you like it's a little too esoteric and out there. For whatever reason for me that book was like a light bulb to my relationship with my ego and understanding my own psychology and all of the things that you just shared. But then I tried to recommend that book and everybody's like I got lost within 10 minutes. What are you talking about? I don't know why for some reason the way he teaches it like I have a I have a total grasp on what you're saying and then then you reflect back and you go

Kim Rapach (47:13.005)
Yep.

Joe (47:38.34)
everything like you just said, my gosh, what was driving all all of these decisions, these either unhealed wounds, unconscious brain patterns or ego made up like 90 % of my life. That's so crazy, you know. And when you kind of like awaken out of that and have an understanding of it, you almost have like a sense of grief. like, man, I can't believe I did all that. And I and you trick yourself into saying you're doing it for the greater good. And

Kim Rapach (47:51.33)
Yeah.

Joe (48:05.338)
I don't think there's anything wrong with it. And I think our ego is healthy at times and it does, it creates ambition and stuff, but just to really know with purity, what is driving you and what your why is and how your actions and your behaviors affect you and those around you. Those are hard questions to peel the layer of the onion back on, but also like, I don't know, it's a beautiful awakening when you start to unravel that stuff and experience it.

Kim Rapach (48:30.272)
Yeah, have you read the dopamine detox?

Joe (48:34.242)
No, I haven't. I like, I kind of tried to not get artificial sources of dopamine. And I try and get, I take screen breaks regularly. I haven't read that book. I've heard of it. But I think I'm kind of familiar with the concept. Like, I'll take days where I don't pick up a screen. And I try to get my dopamine from like, hugging my family, spending time with my dog getting in the cold water, like sustainable ways, not like hijacks like on my phone. And I'm a kind of a hypocrite. Like I have, I'm a

a creator on social media, but I do no scrolling. I don't do any Instagramming. Like I don't get my dopamine that way. And if people unfollowed me because they were doing that, I'd be proud of them telling them that's great. Like I, I try to like do it in the healthiest way possible. I don't capitalize off of it. And I'm not really like a, I don't create stuff. I don't think that hits dopamine. I just share this stuff like we're talking about on here, but like, I'm not on there ever getting my dopamine that way. And I think, I think I'm lucky because I grew up without the internet. I feel terrible for my kids. Like they

they go through withdrawal like when they don't when the Wi Fi goes down or like I have to give them a screen break. They are like drug addicts with it and it's not even their fault but it's like you can see like crazy like their dopamine gets hijacked so easily and then even if you we moderate it here at the house it's everywhere every kid at school has a phone and it's just like yeah so to answer that's the long answer of no I'd like to read that book but I think I'm on board with the principles of it.

Kim Rapach (50:00.748)
Yeah, it's and well, and thinking of your kids and youth in general, that's why I was asking because I think, you know, we're talking about mental health and there's the dopamine hijack and how it's so methodical, like you said, for, you know, industries to get us to spend our money to get us to buy things. And it, you know, to scroll, it's so easy to get our attention, especially for kids who have underdeveloped brains. They're not grown yet.

Joe (50:06.63)
Hmm

Kim Rapach (50:28.782)
I just think it's so important for people even adults to understand like I you know, I have people come to me and they'll be like, I just can't focus. I what's wrong with me. I feel you know, they have a lot of shame. You know, and it's like, that book is a really quick read really quick, like just like I just read it recently, like in an hour or two. But it's so important to understand what's happened the science of what's happening to

eliminate that shame that comes with it. You're getting stuck doomscrolling and getting unhealthy, you know, unhealthy hits of dopamine because you're human and you haven't been taught, but you really can change your brain and you really can change your emotions around it.

Joe (51:18.33)
Yeah, not only have you not been taught, but like the top scientists in the world are spending billions of dollars trying to figure out what additive to your food or what algorithm on the scroll will hijack your computer. so you're not like I love that you're bringing up like, both like you can take ownership and change this. But also don't feel shame about it. The system was designed to do this to you. So you're a victim here of people

Kim Rapach (51:45.218)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe (51:47.408)
capitalizing off of human psychology and our dopamine reward system. And it's they do it with food, they put like everything is designed to hijack your dopamine, so that you go through that withdrawal so that you need more so that you spend your whatever your currency is, whether it's your information, your time, your attention, your money or your energy on their product. And so to like, I do that with my son too, like when he has to take a break from gaming, he's always like dysregulated. And then it's like, and I'm always like, definitely no shame here, like

you're just reacting as a human being like they have capitalized off of your internal workings. But also it is important to notice that when I drag him off of the screen and we go outside and he's skateboarding or playing with a friend within two minutes, he doesn't want to go back on the screen and you can see what thriving actually looks like. Like the minute they get pulled away and they get to like a natural source of dopamine, they don't even want to go back to the screen. Like you can almost see it and then

And it's like palpable, like how much they, they need play and fresh air and connection. And those are the sustainable sources of dopamine, but just like anything it's we do for sure. A hundred percent. And it's a, I, I like, I love meditation though, too, for that reason, like to, to learn how to be uncomfortable, comfortable in stillness was hard for me. Cause I'm like hyperactive ADHD, but like,

Kim Rapach (52:53.326)
So do we.

Joe (53:11.75)
I not only getting the dopamine, also like I crave stillness now, like meditation used to be a chore. I cannot wait to lay down and just sit with my breath for 20 minutes. I love it. And like when you first start 20 seconds is hard because we're so like ping pong, you know, and there's a lot of neuroplasticity is real and we can rewire our thought patterns and our brain and we can develop emotional skill sets and

A lot of things like resilience and grief and joy and gratitude, those are muscles that you can build just like doing bicep curls, but they won't do it on their own. And the world is kind of working against you. So it's hard and you have to take ownership and we have to support each other in it.

Kim Rapach (53:54.7)
Yeah, that's that was gonna use like the gym strength training reference to when you you know, I like I do like my my strength app that shows me how much you know, this is how much you lifted today. This is how many PRs I do love that. I'm not gonna lie. But also I noticed that with because I think celebrating wins matters and it does help with the brain.

Joe (54:08.485)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (54:19.884)
But also I've noticed that like yesterday I had something happen where like the train didn't come and I ended up riding with someone else into Chicago. And so we were late to start our, I was doing a presentation and at the break someone asked me, so you've had a rough morning. And I was like, no.

Trane just didn't come and I got a ride and we started late. I don't have judgment about that. I could put all kinds of meaning to it, but I didn't and she was like, wow, you don't get razzled. You don't get frazzled. And I'm like, I do this for a living. So I've had a lot of practice, but there was a time in my life where I would have and I would have felt shame. I would have felt bad like, no, I'm gonna be late. I have to ask for help. All these, you know.

Limiting beliefs, if you will. And I just, again, when you can stop and pause and go, yeah, I'm resilient. It pays off to do the work. It's not easy, but man, does it pay off because suffering sucks. And if you don't have the skills, you suffer.

Joe (55:25.19)
100 %

This is exactly right. Like you're going to have stress and pain, but your brain is going to take ruminating thoughts and emotions and convert that pain to suffering. And that's the area we can control. And it's so empowering when you don't get ruffled by that stuff. to like what you like to learn to not put a judgment label on like, I missed the train. I was late for the thing. Is it good or is it bad? It's neutral. Some things are bad. I lose a loved one. It sucks. And I'm going to grieve and I'm going to hurt. I'm not saying like everything is neutral. I'm not a monk.

Kim Rapach (55:52.503)
It's neutral.

Joe (55:58.288)
But like, lots of things are neutral, or lots of things you don't really know if they're good or bad. Like, you might get caught at a red light, but there was a car accident waiting for you ahead. And you might be like, how many people were late to work on 911? And you read these like stories of the some of them are bullshit. But some of them are real. Like somebody like one lady I read, she was talking about she she happened the worst morning ever. She was late to work. She thought she was gonna get fired. She was walking to the towers.

she got blisters on her heels, she had to stop at a CVS to get band-aids stressing out about what her boss was gonna say, boom, the towers go down like, holy shit, like a bad blisters on your feet and being late to work and having no more warnings and knowing you're gonna get fired saved her life. We really rarely know if things are good or bad. So to just go like, hey, you know what, it's okay, it's stuff happened. I'm slightly stressed or like somebody cuts you off in traffic, like

Kim Rapach (56:40.718)
Sure.

Joe (56:48.878)
I really like the fact that I don't get mad now. I'm just like, he's in a hurry and I'm back to my coffee back to my music. It's fucking empowering to know that I'm not at the mercy of other people or life circumstances that I can't control. And yeah, do I like being late? No, I don't like being hurried. I don't like missing appointments. But like, I can drive to an appointment that I'm late to in a relaxed manner and go, yeah, I wish I would have been on time, but it's okay. Like that's so empowering. And it's like you said, doing that work.

It doesn't come free, it costs work. But it's just like, if you have big old bulging biceps, you had to put the time into the gym. But it's awesome. You know, you feel good about yourself and you can lift things up. You can play with your kids like the work is highly rewarded. And it's, I don't know, it's just like, I was just talking to a buddy about this last night, it seems I can't believe how disempowered I was most of my life to let things that weren't really stressors take hold of me and like how much our brain

like your hand, for example, like you can do work with your hand, you can write beautiful things, you can send a text, love you, you can give a fist bump to somebody. But like if your hand decided to do what it wanted, and it was punching people in the face and touching a hot stove, like that would be nuts. That's like what our brain does. Like your brain is a beautiful tool like your hand, if you can kind of control your thoughts and your responses and your reaction. But like most of us, the brain is running wild. And it's doing it based on genetic survival mechanisms. So it's

using negative biases to think everything is terrible to get you to survive. But it's like, that is not good. Like, it's so bad to have ruminating thoughts and this fear about what may or may not happen half the time, the things we have anxiety about don't even come true. And if they did come true, just like I did, like, you will cope with it, even if it's the worst case scenario, you will cope with it. But you can't cope with it just running around in your mind 24 seven, you're just living in it. And then the body responds with cortisol and all this crazy stuff like

It's a highly disempowering position and that sucks, but then it's also, it's beautiful that we have these tools and we have these connections and we have these communities and we have these resources, we can do the work. And then we can cultivate a life that is not always going to be happy, shit happens, but like pretty freaking awesome and joyful and resilient. And it's amazing.

Kim Rapach (59:09.006)
Yeah, I had something happen just a couple days ago. I got some news with uncertain results and I'll have to go through it to find out. But my question was, hmm, I wonder how this is gonna make me stronger. And I could very well be like, my gosh, this sucks, I don't wanna do this, this isn't fair. That was a lot of my life, but I was pretty miserable. And now...

You know, it's like, it is very empowering to go, I may not understand it now, but I will be more resilient on the other side of it, regardless of what happens. And truly at the end of the day, you know, you're going to be okay.

Joe (59:45.638)
You're a warrior.

Joe (59:49.574)
Can I ask, we have time? What did you do in the entertainment industry? You sparked my curiosity.

Kim Rapach (59:54.144)
So my son is an actor when he was four, he started saying he wanted to be on TV and in commercials. And I grew up in the 80s. So I was like, hell no, that's not happening. And I was, I was honestly just petrified of the industry. And so much so that his first, we did take him to an audition for an agent and he came out of the room and told us, she said, he's talented. He's got a gift, but mom, dad,

You're not ready.

And we waited like another three or four years. So yeah, and so in the industry, what I thought, because I didn't know better what I thought was going to be miserable, terrifying, dangerous, abusive, because we had good boundaries in place, like we were, we would be the only ones taking him to auditions.

One no on an audition was a no for all of us. We didn't have to have an explanation. So lots of safety parameters in place. But looking back, I mean, was petrified. But in all honesty, we made a lot of friends, met a lot of really cool people.

And sadly, lost a couple people along the way. And I just noticed as a therapist, the work that I was doing with entrepreneurs and artists was very different. What they needed was very different. me having my, you I was an entrepreneur, had my own practice, had a successful practice, was on top of my game and had a very similar experience to yours, where it just built and built and built and I was pushing and pushing and pushing in the name of helping people.

Kim Rapach (01:01:40.576)
serving, not really having an honest solid grasp on my own physical and mental health. And had some really, you know, dark nights of the soul. And it was so scary. And so I swear I would never go back. It was like drew that line in the sand.

This is where I fight for myself. This is where I do not put anybody in front of me, my mental health, because I will hurt myself or somebody else. And so that's why I say when artists are well, everybody wins.

Joe (01:02:13.402)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (01:02:18.412)
So I share that entrepreneurship. And, you know, feel one of the things I do feel proud of is I raised a son in the industry to be a solid human who can regulate his emotions, but is also a really good filmmaker. He's an actor too, but he's a good filmmaker and the industry needs people with integrity. And so I feel proud of that, yeah.

Joe (01:02:18.502)
Thank you for sharing that.

Joe (01:02:40.186)
Yeah, no kidding. That's amazing. and I feel like the only risks in that industry would have been if you have parent like you're the opposite of him being at risk because you are such an advocate for him. I think a lot of times, the things that happen to people in any industry, but particularly that one is when parents are trying to capitalize off of their kids rather than advocate for them. And you are so then you are like, I want to support your passion and your purpose, but also

be here to be boundaried to teach you how to protect yourself and to be an advocate for you. So it sounds like you made something entirely beautiful out of it. It's so cool.

Kim Rapach (01:03:14.9)
Yeah, it's been a very fun ride. He's currently out of state right now on a film project. Hopefully, you'll get to see at some point. So it's exciting. Yeah, just watching him grow up. So yeah, how old are your kids? OK, yeah, he'll be 19 next month.

Joe (01:03:24.836)
That's awesome.

Joe (01:03:29.862)
at 10 and 12.

Joe (01:03:33.754)
It goes by so fast. Holy cow. 19. That sounds so crazy, but I know it's gonna. It seems like just the other day my kids were babies, so know it's right around the corner for me too, even though it's a few years away.

Kim Rapach (01:03:38.563)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (01:03:42.284)
Yeah, I agree with you, though. You know, I saw somebody at Costco today, this sweet mom, reading the organic salsa label to our kid, who probably was only four years old. And I was like, that mama so sweet. She's trying so hard to teach her child what to put in her body. And like, I didn't have any of that. Like, I didn't have any of that. And then, but I think it is this, you know, the generational wealth.

Joe (01:03:59.564)
Yeah... No.

Kim Rapach (01:04:08.222)
isn't only money. It's health, it's wellness, it's boundaries, self-love, self-acceptance, generosity, yeah.

Joe (01:04:14.906)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Heck yeah. This is awesome. And you had touched on celebrating the wins. I feel like, like if you're like me, like a lot of dudes didn't have a dad saying, I'm proud of you, son. Good job, son. And like a lot of times our parents voice internally kind of becomes our external voice. I've had to learn like when I do something sit like even small like

Kim Rapach (01:04:32.312)
Yeah.

Joe (01:04:44.154)
I don't so much do this now, but one of the things that I did that was very effective for me was patting myself on the back very hard for a lot of dudes to do. Like if my kids were melting down and I wanted to yell at them, but I like softened up and gave them a hug, I would tell myself like, good job, dude. Like you didn't get that shit growing up. Like good job. Or like if I don't want to go in the gym or hop on the treadmill or get in the cold water and I, and I do it anyways, I literally tell myself like,

Kim Rapach (01:04:53.292)
Sure.

Kim Rapach (01:05:02.382)
Seriously.

Joe (01:05:11.598)
I talked to myself like I would have bro I'm like good job dude you know like good job bro and that sounds silly except for the fact that I mean put to a lot of men or firemen like I try and tell them like you know what's more silly is you got an inner critic dickhead and they're chirping in your ear telling you you're not good enough and that is not good for self confidence and resilience the world is going to be hard on you and you need to learn you can shift your inner monologue because like now it's like that neuroplasticity is wild like

Kim Rapach (01:05:17.601)
I don't think so.

Joe (01:05:39.224)
I used to have to intentionally do this like this at one point was an exercise that therapist gave me to do like, you know, eight years ago. Now it's natural. Like I tell myself like, Good job, bro. And like, those are little deposits that add up to a healthy self esteem and a self love and confidence and like, the way you talk to yourself matters. And you might be the only other man in your life who says I'm proud of you, but I'll tell myself I'm proud of you. And I am proud of myself. And I don't think there's any like, that's culturally like weird, but like

I want my son to know that if he does the right thing, or he overcome something, you know, like, or even if he fucks up, like, don't you don't need to feel shame, you're a human being, I'll tell myself that like, it's okay, you're human, too. You know, like, I tried to, it was easy for me, because I have kids and like, I talked to my kids the way I would have liked to have been talked to growing up. So I just started talking to my own self the way I would talk to my kids, but like,

Kim Rapach (01:06:16.514)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe (01:06:33.432)
a lot of us we didn't get that growing up and we're passing that on to their kids and it's like, no, like let's let's start being kind to ourselves and to others and I think celebrating the little wins it feels especially to like masculine dudes it feels silly at first like looking in the mirror and saying like I'm proud of you or I love you or just saying good job man you got in the gym and you didn't want to like hey that guy cut you off in traffic and you took a breath good job like

boy that adds up over time and when your voice naturally drifts to like a best friend and it used to be a critic, like your experience is way happier. Like it's way like I'm best friends with myself. I love being alone now like because I'm a cool dude to me. And that didn't always used to be the case. You know what I mean? A lot of people they get in codependent relationships because they're uncomfortable being alone because their voice is not so nice to their internal monologue. And I experienced that personally. And I just like

I think you touched on, said celebrating the wins is important. think that is super important. And I don't think a lot of men get trained on that. I know I sure didn't.

Kim Rapach (01:07:34.414)
Yeah, yeah. And well, and I think that even spills over into how you identify with yourself, right? How you see yourself who you choose to be matters, because that's gonna dictate what you say to yourself, and then how you feel. But if you know, like you're saying, you know, be your own best friend, be talk to yourself like a brother. It was Brené Brown, for me, she had a creative journaling class, I think in 2014, that changed my life. And she had

us do this exercise where we wrote, you had to write I'm enough on your hand and then you had to take a selfie with it and post it in the group. And but it shifted, it changed my brain. And I think it's because I just never known that was an option. And once I did, and I've allowed myself to feel like that feels really good. And then it turned into like, I, I'm no longer someone who talks down to myself. I did for decades. But

Joe (01:08:19.024)
Same.

Joe (01:08:29.712)
Yeah, same.

Kim Rapach (01:08:32.226)
But then there comes a point where like, I don't talk to myself that way. is unproductive, it's untrue, and it only makes me feel bad. you know, I don't know if you've heard, seen anything I've posted, but one of my mantras is you cannot condemn yourself into positive change. It doesn't work. I tried it for years.

Joe (01:08:49.312)
I did see that one. And it's 100 % true. It's so it's, I think I might have commented. No, it's true. It's so true. It's beautifully true.

Kim Rapach (01:08:55.682)
Yeah. Yeah. So identify who you are, who you want to be, not who the world tells you you are. And celebrate the wins. Just those two things alone are powerful. And there's so much more.

Joe (01:09:11.152)
Yeah, you're an incredible coach and therapist. That's awesome. And I think the people like the, know, I've had different coaches and therapists and some were literally a total waste of time and money, even though they had good intentions, they just weren't ready to help me with where I was at. But some were the catalyst to get me to where I was. And the ones who had the big impact on my life or my family's life were the ones like you.

Kim Rapach (01:09:14.51)
Thank you.

Joe (01:09:37.488)
who have actually lived it and gone through it and done the growth and the change and then are also coaches and therapists. And so I think people like you are very, very important. Like there's a lot of, like if you're a youngster and you just get out of counseling school and you want to go be a counselor and you're in your twenties, like nothing wrong with them. And I hope that they don't get trauma like I had, but also like school doesn't equip you to coach somebody like me who is going through what I went through. needed.

I found therapists and counselors and coaches who had also done their own dark night of the soul as you speak of, or done their own transformational work. And I have a very special place in my heart for people who coach or give therapy to other people who have also been in the trenches themselves, because that's exactly who and what I needed. And I was marginal and my family almost didn't make it. And so whenever I meet somebody like you, feel

compelled to share with them that it's pretty amazing work you're doing.

Kim Rapach (01:10:36.487)
Thank you so much, Joe. That means a lot.

What changed for me, I'd had a therapist and I'd gone to school and I was trained and I was a good therapist. But what really shifted for me was when, even though I didn't realize it was happening, once my physical body started rejecting people and good things and it slowly morphed into something dangerous, what I realized is I had to do some somatic work, which is body work.

you know, really understanding how my nervous system was communicating to me what it was holding, how it was still holding and manifesting things I thought that because I could say out loud, I'd been through that I'd be okay, but I wasn't. finding an integrative coach who did somatic work is what changed.

really, really helped me heal at a much deeper level. And it's, still work in progress, but you know, it's layer by layer.

Joe (01:11:40.026)
your tissues certainly hold your issues that is damn true. I cannot get over the fact that people think that's woo woo. Like it's so true and real and the body keeps the score and that's evidence based. And when you tap into that, like you learn, like I learned a lot of the body keeps the score stuff doing mind body stuff for physical pain after my neck injury.

Kim Rapach (01:11:42.465)
That's right.

Joe (01:12:05.582)
And then that's what really started opening up expressive letter writing and crying tears and then realizing that my pain signals were turned on in my nervous system because I had stored emotions that I hadn't processed because I'm a dude and how much better I felt physiologically. And then you start getting in tune with your instrument and realizing like, man, I'm noticing like my nervous system is turned on. Like that's science. You have fight or flight and rest or digest. You have a parasympathetic and a sympathetic.

and your thoughts and your experiences and your traumas activate one or the other. And you can notice like when like, okay, I have a good resting heart rate. It's normally in the 50s. Why is my heart rate 115 right now? Why is my jaw clench or whatever like, because I'm physiologically activated because I have some sort of unprocessed emotion or I haven't expressed this trauma enough or whatever. And like, I just I wish that that it's becoming more and more mainstream. But I I

I push back hard when people scoff at that sort of work because it's, you cannot separate the mind, the body and the emotions. It's an integrated system. That's all like science has caught up with that. Like you can put somebody on a functional MRI and see what's going on when their brain, when they meditate, you can read all the evidence based stuff and the body keeps the score. Like that, that somatic work is an effective modality and you can't separate yourself from your nervous system or your body. And you can't

suppress your experiences. I mean, you can but to your folly and the body will but then also to like, it's really wild to get in touch with that stuff. Like I had no body awareness before this last decade of doing this type of work. And like, now I understand what people mean when they say your gut like your gut instinct or your intuition like, like my body will tell me when a decision needs to be made with business or a relationship quicker than my mind will.

And everybody knows you get butterflies in your stomach when you're nervous, you know, like your body, if we're used to having physiological reactions, but we can't quite connect the dots that that's a real thing. Like that's a very who has not gotten butterflies in their stomach when they're nervous, like your body responds to emotions for sure. And so that's another thing. It will guide you. if you learn to read it and trust it, your gut my intuition, the only time I make foolish decisions or regrettable decisions is when I go

Kim Rapach (01:14:12.876)
And it will guide you. It will guide you if you learn to trust it.

Joe (01:14:24.09)
I let my heart lead over my or my head lead over my heart and my gut. if I listen to my gut 10 out of 10 times, it's it's right. But you got to kind of get in tune with doing that type of work and with your instrument, you know, so that's really cool that you're into that too.

Kim Rapach (01:14:37.868)
Are you familiar with the Enneagram?

Joe (01:14:40.55)
I have heard of it and I have heard people tell me like, you're probably a AJE or whatever. I don't know what they are, but like people always tell me what any of your gram I am. I've never done it yet.

Kim Rapach (01:14:49.742)
We're not supposed to tell people what they are.

Joe (01:14:52.548)
I hope people always tell me what they are and what they think I am and I should take in. It's something I've been curious about, but I've never actually looked into yet.

Kim Rapach (01:14:59.864)
Well, it's just, it's an integrative personality tool that guides you. It's, know, unlike other personality assessments, in, instead of putting you in a box and keeping you there, it shows you the box you're already in and shows you a way out. So there's nine different lenses, but one, my favorite part of the Enneagram and the reason I use it so much, I do all of my coaching through the lens of the Enneagram because with the nine types, there are three in each.

center of intelligence, your head, your heart or your gut. And so it's like a fast track through therapy because you're automatically connecting your centers of intelligence to your personality. And then whatever it is that you're trying to work through or trying to accomplish based on where you're holding tension in your body, we can just get to the root. like, I feel like it just helps you kind of

pluck the roots out and look at it and shake off what doesn't work and replant and keep moving and it allows you to get into your body in a safe way that is not too intrusive.

Joe (01:16:03.878)
that's really cool. Now I'm my curiosity is very sparked. I tried taking what is the one that's like, it's not the enneagram, but like, it has different letters like ijt or whatever, do you know what I'm talking about? It's like, okay, the Myers-Riggs. So I where I ran into trouble with it was like, I've had all of this weird transformational growth and evolution. So I didn't know how to answer the question. I knew how to answer the question authentically, because that's the only way I know how to be. But like, my answers were like, I almost had like,

Kim Rapach (01:16:15.03)
The mayor's grinks.

Joe (01:16:34.19)
an answer for who I am now and answer for who I was before all of this trauma and growth that I've had. And so I almost felt like I would have been this at one time, but now I'm this. so like, I didn't quite know how to like, I was just tinkering around online, trying it out. Cause somebody had mentioned I should do it they were doing it, the fire department and stuff. But like, I didn't quite know how to answer those questions. Cause I'm like, based on temperament, I'm over here, but then I've had all this weird trauma and growth. now I would actually say I'm over here.

Kim Rapach (01:17:02.358)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think you have to answer according to what feels true in your core now. Yeah. Yeah. OK. real quick, before we go, I want to ask you just a couple of things as far as what are your, like, people are listening now and they're like, OK, if this guy can make it.

Joe (01:17:03.322)
Does that make sense?

Joe (01:17:10.926)
Now, okay. All right, I'll look up the Enneagram. I'll see what I am and I'll let you know what my results are.

Kim Rapach (01:17:28.768)
I can make it, but I don't know where to start. What are some of your daily non-negotiables?

Joe (01:17:35.584)
I subscribe. So because I was a firefighter and we're all EMTs and we like acronyms and public safety, I use EMT and this is how I teach it. But this is also my non-negotiables, emotional awareness and processing, mindfulness and meditation, and then talking, normalizing this type of dialogue. those are my fundamentals. So I always process my emotions and that

can look like a deep journaling session. But also I'm a busy dad and entrepreneur, so I don't always have time. That might just be put in a label to a way I feel like telling my wife like, Hey, I just got off this amazing podcast, and I feel really connected or like, traffic sucks. And somebody was a jerk to me I feel frustrated. Like, I like to share my feelings or or even just internally, like, I'll tell myself like,

man, you're feeling burnt out. Like just putting words to my feelings and processing my emotions. Or if I watch a movie that makes me want to laugh or cry, like engaging in my emotions. Like that's an important part of my lifestyle that was absent for a long time and now it's a non-negotiable for me. Like tapping into my feelings, I really lean into it. I don't think emotions are something to be shied away from. I think they're indicators. If I'm feeling anger,

Kim Rapach (01:18:34.189)
Love it.

Joe (01:18:56.836)
That's a natural human emotion. It means I either need to meditate or maybe I need to hold a boundary. don't know what it is, but emotions are Intel and they tell you what's going on in your mind and your body. And so I'm always all about just like kind of checking in with my emotions and processing them in one way, or form or another mindfulness and meditation. For me, that one meditative breath saved my life. And I'm thankful that I've been meditating for a long time. And after that happened, I really stepped up the practice and

I'll guide myself a lot now, but I think there are good guided meditations on YouTube and the calm app. And there's a lot of different ways to meditate. If you have a busy mind, like for me, walking the dog can be a meditation, you can do a moving meditation. It just means getting out of your mind and into your senses. Because smell, sight, taste, touch, touch and sound in the now is where happiness is in your mind is where ruminating thoughts and stress and anxiety and depression and labels and judgment are. So anything that gets you

to get into your breath, to regulate your nervous system, to tap into the present moment. try to spend, if I am having the busiest day in the world, it can be one breath. I prefer to do an hour a day broken up into 15 or 20 minute sessions. I definitely think if you can knock out some breath work first thing in the morning and before bed, even for just a few minutes, it's a game changer. Just scan your body, relax your hands and your toes and your belly and your jaw. Take some conscious breaths.

power of doing that three or four or five breaths while you're relaxing your body a couple times a day, game changer over time. And then talking like I'm big into connecting with people doing like what we do here or just like a quick text message like I love like I lost a lot of friends as I shared with you. I can I tell my friends like, hey, man, I'm just thinking about you. A lot of dudes don't do that. Like, hey, bro, I'm just checking in on you. Hey, I was thinking about you. Hey, love you, bro. Or recall my friend. Hey, dude, you remember when we went on that concert last year? That was so fun. Like just talking to my friends.

and staying connected with people but not like I can't do surface level I don't give a fuck about talking about the weather even though I started that conversation with the weather. I want to like say how are you or I'm thinking about you or like I don't know talk to my kids like what are you what's going on in your world like what was the best part of the day what was the worst part of the day like talking like normalizing this type of dialogue so emotions mindfulness meditation and talking. I think we thrive off routines and I kind of like multitasking my wellness so like

Joe (01:21:17.38)
I wake up every morning, a little bit of breath work. And then I like to walk my dog. And to me, I get all of these things at once. get sunlight, fresh air. It's a moving meditation. I'm moving my body. So it's exercise. I'm connecting with my dog and the neighbors who I talked to. I get the kids off to school. If I have a perfect day, I hop in the cold plunge and go for a workout and hit the treadmill. All of that stuff is like really important. And then just self care. What that looks like is different for everybody.

And if you only have time for one breath of self care, that's 365 breaths of self care that you didn't give to yourself at the end of a year. like the fact of the matter is it's not selfish. You cannot pour out from an empty cup. And if you hit burnout, you're only hurting yourself and your loved ones. So my EMT system and self care, those are the things I kind of teach to the firemen, but I teach them because those are my personal non-negotiable practices that have helped me out. So

I have could get into the weeds on the work, but that's like you said real quick, kind of rapid fire. That's, that would be, I think a good answer to that.

Kim Rapach (01:22:17.494)
I love that so much. You just, seem like such a great guy, know, great dad, great husband, and clearly a great coach. And I know that this is, you know, the paramedics and firefighters and police officers are your niche, but you coach other people. Yes. No.

Joe (01:22:37.476)
No, I don't even really coach I do training now and to be honest with you. So like I did when I first started on Instagram and before this was a business. I was doing some one on one coaching. I don't really like doing it that much to be honest with you. I like informal coaching. I love like if a brother calls me up and says like I need help navigating a conflict with my wife or talking about feelings. I love connecting in that regard. but I don't know I like

Kim Rapach (01:22:41.665)
Okay.

Joe (01:23:06.116)
I like training groups of people and then like if they really want to do the work, they do the work. But no, I don't do one on one coaching. I didn't I don't know. I think I'm OK at it. I found that that I like that's kind of where I was circling back to talk about the type of work you do and how important it is. I think for me, one on one coaching really drained my batteries and I was I was able to make a business out of it and people wanted it and I was making money and.

I was having some change, infecting some changes in some people, but also like.

I don't know, like something about it was like, people weren't ready to do the work and then the tools that I was on, I don't know, like there's an art to being a coach and a counselor. And I think it's probably something I could figure out and I didn't like it. And so I love what I'm doing now, which is like, I get in these rooms full of firemen and like, it's not an ego thing, but they're captivated by what I'm saying. And like, I, it's my, I speak the language so well, like it's, it's not some random person who I met on Instagram.

it's my brothers and sisters and I know exactly what they're going through and like I'm repudiated here in the valley so they know me and like they're there to do the work and like I know how to speak to them and like I know how to motivate them and they motivate me and we share and we cry and like and then I informally coach them but I leave the department with my all my training videos and the meditations and all this stuff but like yeah one-on-one coaching I found to like drain my batteries to be honest with you or even just like I I think

Sometimes my coaching sessions turned into like, almost like, like I had a couple of people on Instagram who I coached and they, they hired me for coaching. then even though I love talking and like, this is an interview here, so I'm talking, I will really, one of my talents, I think is I will shut up and I will give you all of my heart and my attention and my energy and I'll let people talk and I'll be a really good empathetic ear. And I had people like opening up to me, a couple of women opened up to me about some sexual assaults that they had never talked

Joe (01:25:10.308)
two women that they had never talked to anybody else about. And I like shared space for them. But I felt quite and I've had some firemen call me who were suicidal. I felt and I've talked to guys who were like on the brink. Quite honestly, I'm not trained for that I felt out of my depths. I felt like energetically I was thankful to be on those calls. And I'm very thankful that those people said I helped them. But like, it stressed me the fuck out. I felt like way out of my depth and also like

I have a big heart and so I take on a lot of that stuff when people share their trauma with me. And so that's an important thing to do and I'm not turning that off entirely, but I have to be like really selective with that. And so I just, it wasn't like a good fit for me, but I've needed it so much. And that's why I really was kind of, that's kind of what I was getting at. Like people like you are very important and I don't, I think maybe I have the skillset to do it, but I'm not equipped to do that type of one-on-one coaching to be honest with you.

Kim Rapach (01:26:05.698)
Well, I love your honesty. And I'll say, when I was a therapist, when I was doing really well, especially earlier in my career, I mean, I couldn't see enough people. It filled me up. It gave me energy.

but that's where I was in that season of my life and looking back I'm like that was clearly a trauma response like you were getting energy from other people's pain not you know in the way of being able to help them through that pain of course but now switching from therapy to mental wellness coaching and using more of the enneagram it really does and I

Joe (01:26:34.544)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (01:26:44.952)
You know, I do strategy calls and I'll spend a ton of time with people just to make sure if we're a good fit, because like you said, you have to want to do the work that nobody can do this work for you. Nobody can work harder at this than you can for yourself. And you have to want it for you.

I can't want it for you more than you want it yourself. And so I think it's when you were saying like, I'm not my thing, it drained me. like, I think that's because you've done the work and you're healthy. And that's was that just that piece wasn't your calling. And it just sounds like what you do with your training. You're literally being the person that you needed before you almost lost yourself, which is incredible. I think you're right where you need to be.

Joe (01:27:30.106)
Thank you for all those insights and for validating me like that. That was awesome. I think you're right, but it just felt really good to hear it from an external perspective like that.

Kim Rapach (01:27:37.942)
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here and spending so much time with me. This was a wonderful conversation. I'm so glad we met. and we're gonna see each other in California. Yeah, yeah. fine. That's it. Yeah, that's how we met through Kimberly, Shannon, Murphy. So yeah.

Joe (01:27:50.3)
yeah, I forgot about that. You're going to Kimberly's thing. How cool is that? We'll sit together.

Joe (01:27:59.13)
So thank you for putting this together to answer. Yeah, you're quite welcome. And I appreciate you having patience with my schedule. And this conversation filled my cup up. And you're an incredible human. And these types of interviews are always just like some sort of really cool connection and friendship emerges from it. But this one was very special. So thank you.

Kim Rapach (01:28:17.9)
Yeah, I feel the same way. I'm so glad that you're on the planet. I'm so glad you're doing the work you're doing. And those that get to be trained by you are just going to thrive because of it.

Joe (01:28:27.43)
Yeah, you make me feel very seen. Talk about ego. You're giving me a big ego. I appreciate it. You're making me feel validated and happy.

Kim Rapach (01:28:33.13)
I think we feel equally grateful.

Kim Rapach (01:28:38.686)
Awesome. Awesome. Well, have a great day. I'll see you Sunday. Okay. Bye, Joe.