The Work of Warriors

Rissi Palmer (00:05.808)
Bye.

Kim Rapach (00:07.01)
Hi, Recy. I'm good, thank you. How are you?

Rissi Palmer (00:08.562)
How are you?

Rissi Palmer (00:12.304)
I'm good, can you hear me well?

Kim Rapach (00:14.318)
I can hear you very well. How about you?

Rissi Palmer (00:16.858)
I'm good. No, you sound great.

Kim Rapach (00:19.091)
Awesome. So usually you're on the right side of the screen, but you're on the left. So this I'm just adjusting. I don't know how or why that happened, but

Rissi Palmer (00:24.966)
Yeah, no, I promise I didn't do it. I don't know. I don't know either.

Kim Rapach (00:33.55)
I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for saying yes.

Rissi Palmer (00:38.03)
No, thank you for asking me. I'm honored. Thank you.

Kim Rapach (00:41.75)
Yeah, absolutely. I was watching the series, It's All Country, hosted by Luke Bryan. And I was watching the episode with Mickey Guyton.

Rissi Palmer (00:47.1)
Uh-huh.

Rissi Palmer (00:54.918)
Okay.

Kim Rapach (00:56.48)
And she was talking about mental health and the importance of mental health. And she referenced you as one of her inspirations. And so to the internet, I went and learned about you. And this podcast is dedicated to bringing mental wellness to the entertainment industry and with the ultimate goal of eradicating celebrity suicide. And so there are lots of artists who talk about.

Rissi Palmer (01:07.132)
That's really sweet.

Kim Rapach (01:26.358)
mental health in their interviews and I want to create a space where that's all we talk about.

Rissi Palmer (01:32.786)
No, think that's, I think that's much needed. it's a, we're, especially now we're in a, we're in a very.

Kim Rapach (01:38.477)
Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (01:47.514)
Yeah, it's a really trying time to be right now. So thank you for doing that because good Lord.

Kim Rapach (01:53.059)
Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (02:00.795)
What a mess.

Kim Rapach (02:02.56)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think even, even without the mess, it's so hard to be human, right? There's so many layers to this. And I, you know, I also believe you can't talk about mental health without talking about racism. You can't talk about mental health without talking about real lived experiences. And the only way to understand those real lived experiences is to create a space where people can tell their truth.

Rissi Palmer (02:10.737)
Mm-hmm.

Rissi Palmer (02:18.994)
Mmm.

Rissi Palmer (02:31.762)
100%.

Kim Rapach (02:31.95)
That's what we're here for,

Rissi Palmer (02:35.25)
100%. I mean, one of my favorite things about this time is now people speak openly about being in therapy. And, you know, I don't know that I could, I don't know that I would have gotten through the last couple of years myself, you know, I'm recently divorced and just the toll that that took and I have,

two girls. And yeah, I don't know that I would have been able to get through without really, really great therapy, really great friends and really great therapy.

Kim Rapach (03:22.956)
Yeah. What barriers would you say mentally you had to work through barriers, meaning limiting beliefs, stereotypes, conditioning to get yourself to therapy.

Rissi Palmer (03:38.994)
So as a black woman who was raised by very traditional, very well-meaning, but very traditional religious, my father is a deacon. And now my bonus mother is also my mother, but she's a bonus, because my biological mother passed away when I was little.

My mom is a deaconess as well. so, you know, I grew up in church and I grew up in a very, very religious church oriented family. And so a lot of

You know, I've been very open about it. I've had an eating disorder growing up and just a lot of little traumas here and there. Like I said, the death of my mother when I was seven and no, no. And, you know, I'm a survivor of a sexual assault when I was a teenager and a lot of things. so when my parents found out about the eating disorder,

Kim Rapach (04:37.686)
And that's not little.

Here.

Rissi Palmer (04:55.078)
my father, you know, they were, they were well-meaning. Again, I say this, I have to preface this because my, you know, my parents, I loved them very much and I know that they love me and they were doing the best that they can. And now that I'm a parent, I realize some of the things that we get mad at our parents for, sometimes they deserve it. And sometimes it's just kind of like they were doing the best that they could at that time. And so, I was taken to the pediatrician.

to talk about this and the pediatrician is the one that suggested that I go to therapy. But my parents, their first initial thought was we need to pray about this and we need to pray about you in church and like that sort of thing. And I'm really glad that my pediatrician suggested therapy. And so I think a lot, I say all that to say that I think a lot of black families especially.

I don't think it's the case anymore with my generation, but I think generations before us, that wasn't really an option to go to a therapist. That was kind of a privilege and a luxury. So there have been generations of black people that instead of seeking therapeutic help and having that available to them. A lot of people have relied on prayer and church.

to do the job and sometimes church does an incredible job and then sometimes church does a really crappy job and it actually makes you feel worse. So yeah, for me it was cultural. And like my parents are very supportive of me going to therapy and I talk about it all the time. Like when I was married, I was in marriage counseling and now I'm in therapy. My daughter is in therapy.

to deal with the divorce and just teenager stuff. My brother is in therapy and I'm not outing him by saying that. He talks about it very openly and then we talk about it and I think it's made our lives better. I know it's made my life better.

Kim Rapach (07:14.158)
Yeah. How do you know how to find a good therapist? You said good therapy. I noticed you said good therapy. I used to be a therapist. I'm a mental wellness coach. Now I can kind of like redefined my role in life. But, you know, I was a traditional therapist for a long time. And so I love that you said good therapy. So what does, what defines good therapy? Because also as a woman of color, there's so many other avenues and so many other, limiting resources.

Rissi Palmer (07:19.171)
Yes!

Kim Rapach (07:43.48)
for someone who really can understand and provide good care for your situation, not just any therapist. So how did you find good therapy?

Rissi Palmer (07:52.378)
Yeah.

So I have had in the series of therapists that I had, I had one very great marriage counselor. And I know it's weird to say that as a divorced person. She was great. She was great. We were terrible, but she was great. She was really, really good. And I wrote her after the fact, because we had stopped going to see her.

because of my former spouse not liking going to her. And I wrote her and told her after the fact. And I said, I just want you to know, like you did us proud. So we just, it went in the cards. But, the therapist that I go to now is amazing. And I love her and she's...

one of my favorite people and like we're at the point now where I can just say something to her and I was like, okay, you're giving me the face and she'll start laughing and like she's a black woman as well. And I love, I define a good therapist as someone that you develop rapport with someone that you can trust. Someone that is not judge, they're not critical judgmental, but you do want them to

to make judgment and to question you there, cause there's a difference between being judgmental and having judgment, I think. And she does that. Like I've never once felt like she is sitting here judging me and thinks I'm a terrible person. It's always like, okay, so I'm looking at the decision that you made and I don't think that's the healthiest decision. And so I want to talk about why did you feel like that was the right decision to make?

Rissi Palmer (09:48.806)
and that sort of thing. So I don't ever feel, I feel examined at the end of it. And I feel,

Rissi Palmer (09:58.834)
What's the word?

I feel like a great therapist is thoughtful. Like she thinks and takes pauses before she says things. Like unless I just say something just completely just out cold, then there's an immediate reaction, which has happened. for the most part, she's very thoughtful and she thinks about what I say and she listens a lot more than she talks.

And so when she does say something, I put a lot of stock in it because it's not like she spends the entire time talking over me or anything like that. And so to me, those are the, the markers of a good therapist.

Kim Rapach (10:46.574)
Yeah, a lot of the work that I do is somatic, meaning teaching people how to get back into their bodies and how to untether from trauma. But one thing that I say, you know, I pictured you in the room, and you said somebody that you can trust, you know, to me, I would say trust your body. If you walk in, and you can feel your central nervous system relax, if you can feel you, you know, you feel yourself exhale. If you

Rissi Palmer (10:52.372)
Mmm.

Rissi Palmer (11:09.702)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rapach (11:15.244)
You know, you're going to have some probably apprehension no matter what if you've never been to therapy before, but really listen to what your body says because you should feel safe with that person because it is a very vulnerable relationship. so safety and trust I think is number one for sure. But listen to your body. Yeah. And when you leave, you should feel better for the most part before you walked in.

Rissi Palmer (11:20.39)
Mm-hmm.

Rissi Palmer (11:31.472)
Yeah, absolutely.

Rissi Palmer (11:35.855)
Absolutely.

Kim Rapach (11:42.198)
unless you hit something really tough, which is normal and part of the process. But for the most part, you should feel seen and heard and safe and well cared for. And if you don't, you don't have to go back, right?

Rissi Palmer (11:56.026)
Yeah, no, that's the other thing too. I think for me in the very beginning when I was going to, to therapy, I would feel this need to, stick with the situation just because I was like, I don't want to tell anybody else this stuff. Like, I don't want to rehash this with someone new and

Yeah, that's really, that's not helpful. Like that's not a helpful way to look at the situation. That's not a helpful way to be. And you know, and that's something also that I had to work out in therapy is that need that whole idea of.

Rissi Palmer (12:45.83)
I have to just sit here and take it and I can't say, cause I'll hurt someone's feelings or, you know, I'll make them, I'll make them not like me or whatever. And it's like, no, it's, it's therapy. Like, need, this is for me. This isn't for you. I'm paying you to do a job and not to, you know, not to, not to dehumanize the therapist, but it's just like, if this isn't working, it's not working. And feeling comfortable with getting out of it.

So yeah, that was definitely a journey for me, but like, I feel like that now. Like if it's not gonna work for me anymore, then why am I, what am I paying for?

Kim Rapach (13:22.54)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (13:27.854)
Sure. Well, and I think the need to, I would go as far to say the need to people please, especially in a therapist office is definitely a conditioned or a trauma response, right? Like you learn that somewhere. And so once you know that you don't have to do that, you know that you're also healing within yourself, whether that therapist helped you do that or not. The other thing you said was, wait, what did you say? had a thought. What was it?

Rissi Palmer (13:38.898)
100 %

Kim Rapach (13:55.98)
You were talking about the process. What did you say? It was so good. It'll come back to me. It'll come back to me.

Rissi Palmer (14:05.234)
It'll come back to you at like three o'clock in the morning. That's how it does for me. It'll be like three o'clock in the morning. I was like, okay, I got it.

Kim Rapach (14:09.39)
How do I call Reezy? the fuck? that's gonna bug me. Therapist.

I know. Something important that you said was you didn't want to hash it all out again. Like the thought of if I don't like this therapist and I hear this, I've heard this so many times. I don't want to start over with someone new. I don't want to hash it all out again. And I would, I would challenge that with if you're going to do your work.

Rissi Palmer (14:36.667)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rapach (14:46.496)
If you're going to be working on yourself and you're going to be healing and you're going to be looking at the roots of why you make decisions that you make that you may not like or things that are hurtful to you, you're going to rehash your whole story over and over and over again, because you learn and you grow every time you go back through the story. And I think people fear like, I'm going to go back and it's going to be just as painful as the first time.

But in fact, it gets easier because you have more clarity, you have more compassion, you have more self awareness. And so again, whether you do that with a therapist or do it on your own, it's okay to go, you're going to go back to the stories, right? We all have trauma, so you're going to go back to them because you have to untether from them. It's not to go back. Again, I think people feel it's like they're going to feel like a victim or they're focusing on the negative, but really it's about untethering. It's about healing.

Rissi Palmer (15:15.686)
Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (15:30.642)
100%.

Kim Rapach (15:45.718)
And it's about feeling empowered every time you go back and untether from a story, from a trauma. It's empowering.

Rissi Palmer (15:53.68)
Yeah. And you said something really important too. think too, a fear that I had for a very long time, I think was that I'm so messed up that I don't want to, like you're almost, it's almost scary a little bit. It's very vulnerable to put yourself in the position of

Kim Rapach (16:07.618)
you

Rissi Palmer (16:22.702)
of being in therapy and that sort of thing. And for me, I don't feel this all the time, but I did feel this at the beginning of doing therapy that I was so messed up.

And so just things were so bad with me that and so irredeemable and that sort of thing that it's almost it's embarrassing to do it. And so you're like starting over is hard because not only is it me having to rehash the story, but it's also kind of reliving some of the humiliation and some of the shame.

or whatever that you associate with whatever it is that you're working out in therapy. I went through a lot of that for a long time.

Kim Rapach (17:15.65)
Yeah. Do you feel like you've had healing?

Rissi Palmer (17:19.342)
Yeah, because like we've known each other like Angela and I at this point have been working together for two years. Almost three. And it was at the very beginning, like when I first moved out of the home, my marital home, and there was a lot of guilt, a lot of a lot of shame associated with the fact that I was

you know, had the audacity to leave my marriage. And...

Yeah, I had a lot of shame associated with that. And so when I first started going to her, like I intellectually, I know that you're a therapist and I know that you are supposed to. That's your job is to sit and listen to me. But. I'm just like, God, if I tell you this, you're not going to want to.

Just because of how I felt about it internally. So, yeah. Mm-hmm. No, is, shame is strong.

Kim Rapach (18:36.002)
Shame is a pesky one.

Kim Rapach (18:40.48)
It's strong, so deep rooted, so present even when you're not aware of it.

Rissi Palmer (18:48.018)
Absolutely. you know, for me, that was a big, I mean, that's been a big, I would say probably one of the biggest things that I'm trying to work through in therapy period is like, you know, you did something, you did, you made whatever choice you made and dealing with not only I made this choice and this is

Kim Rapach (18:50.402)
Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (19:15.43)
the aftermath, didn't turn out the way that I wanted it to. But also like just being like, I made a mistake. You know, however that mistake was made, whether it's, you regarded as a dumb mistake or whatever kind of mistake, regardless, you made a mistake and it's okay to make mistakes and people make mistakes. are consequences to those mistakes, but like having shame on top of that does not help.

anything. It doesn't help growth. doesn't help your mental health. It doesn't help any of that. so shaking off that shame, you know, it's an ongoing process for me. And that's just the truth.

Kim Rapach (19:59.032)
So how I look at that, is we all have a nervous system, right? And it is so hard based on our experience, the world that we live in, it's so hard to stay regulated. And it's not something that we're taught to do. It's not something we're raised with. Unless we're in therapy, and even then as...

Rissi Palmer (20:03.845)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rapach (20:23.374)
You know, early in my career, I didn't even know anything about somatic work, about nervous system work or regulation. I just knew about thoughts, right? Thoughts and feelings and behaviors. But if we all have a nervous system, my perspective is we're making decisions when we're not aware, when we're not self-aware, when we're not in therapy, when we're not doing inner work, we're making decisions out of dysregulated states. We're choosing partners when we're dysregulated and unaware.

Rissi Palmer (20:30.876)
Mm-hmm.

Rissi Palmer (20:48.348)
Mmm.

Kim Rapach (20:52.834)
We're making all kinds of business decisions, financial decisions from a place that isn't fully self-aware, that isn't regulated. Does that make sense? If I'm hyper anxious, if I'm hyper aroused, if I'm really anxious, I'm gonna be grasping for things that make me feel safe. And I believe once people understand how the nervous system works and

Rissi Palmer (21:04.858)
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.

Rissi Palmer (21:15.41)
Right?

Kim Rapach (21:22.83)
how they can re-regulate, how they can come back into what's called like the work of, the work, what's called the window of tolerance. You know, I say this to my clients all the time, let's not make that decision until you're regulated. You know, that's where we wanna leave everything and we wanna blow everything up or we wanna shut down or we just wanna stay the hell with it all. Let's not do that until we're regulated.

Rissi Palmer (21:31.036)
Mm-hmm.

Rissi Palmer (21:38.61)
Mmm.

Yes.

Kim Rapach (21:48.266)
And, you know, regulation comes from various degrees, whether it's, you know, medication or exercise or, you know, prayer, meditation, but lots of ways to regulate the nervous system. But I think as a society, I'm going to be so bold as to say most people are walking around dysregulated and they don't even know it.

Rissi Palmer (22:10.322)
Yeah, no, I think that's a bold statement. That's a very accurate, very accurate statement.

Kim Rapach (22:16.022)
And well, and then add shame on top of it, right? So I've made this mistake. I've done this in my life. I've, you know, I've done this and then you add shame, which is I think what we're all conditioned to do, especially as women. It's, just feels like you're broken. It, like you said, it feels like you're bad. feels like you're, you know, unfixable. And none of that is true.

Rissi Palmer (22:21.905)
Yep.

Rissi Palmer (22:40.706)
Mmm. Yeah. No. Yeah.

Kim Rapach (22:44.12)
We're making decisions based on the best tools we have at that given time. And when we know better, we do better.

Rissi Palmer (22:51.142)
Yeah, no, that's.

That is me in a nutshell. that has been, honestly, has been, all joking aside, that has been the hardest thing for me as an adult to get through is just those, like, you are bad. Like, you're bad at this and that sort of thing. And just trying to not say those things.

and not be that way to myself. Yeah.

Kim Rapach (23:27.064)
Yeah. Yeah, what's the same? Treat yourself like you would somebody that you love.

Rissi Palmer (23:34.065)
Ha, right.

Kim Rapach (23:37.005)
Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (23:37.21)
Right.

Kim Rapach (23:39.616)
And as parents, think we can use that like, would I say this to my child? Because each of us has an inner child, right? So if I wouldn't say it to my son, because it would hurt him, then it would cause damage. Why would I say it to myself and think that it wouldn't cause damage or wouldn't hurt me?

Rissi Palmer (23:48.796)
Mm-hmm.

Rissi Palmer (24:00.434)
That's so true. That's actually, that's a great rule of thumb. Yeah, that's a great rule.

Hmm. I'm going to use that. Thank you. I'm stealing that.

Kim Rapach (24:14.54)
Absolutely. So can we talk about your experience in the music industry?

Rissi Palmer (24:22.802)
Sure, a hot mess.

Kim Rapach (24:24.172)
You've made some waves. You've made some waves. I'd love for you to tell our listeners about it. Just about your true experience. And because so much beauty has come out of it, but you've been through it. You wanna talk about that a bit?

Rissi Palmer (24:41.25)
Yeah, sure. I,

So I started out in music business when I was 18 and I was signed to two women that were

They were not experienced in the type of music that I wanted to make, but they were go-getters. you know, I talk about them, I start the conversation with them because so much of that early trauma in the music business was because of my working relationship with them.

And, you know, I was young, I was 17 when I started working on my first project. And like my first demo and all that. you know, there was a lot of really negative talk, really negative.

reinforcement going on. They played on a lot of my insecurities and like that sort of thing. So I already was going into this pretty...

Rissi Palmer (26:09.744)
In a not good way. and so we moved to Atlanta as a group. left college when I was 18. I got my first publishing deal when I was 19. Started going back and forth to Nashville, taking meetings and, and everyone was interested. The problem was not many people knew what to do with me. And when I say, you know, what to do with me.

A lot of people are always baffled by that because it's like, well, I don't know, you're a singer. Like, what do you mean? But I don't really think that the country music industry really knows what to do with artists of color, especially women of color. And if you can't box it and manufacture it and make it just like everything else that we've done, then we have no clue what to do with you.

And that was my experience. For a really long time, they came, like I would take these meetings and, you know, we love your voice. Just not sure what to do with an artist like you. So I really do have a seven year, like there's a joke that Nashville is a seven year town and you're an overnight success of seven years. That really was my experience.

Like I said, I got my first pub deal at 19, but nothing else happened for me until...

Shoot, seven years later. I was offered a record deal when I was 22 with Jeremy Jam and Terry Lewis. And I was going to take the deal. it just, I realized that they were not interested in me doing country. And they said as much like, know, we're very interested in you. We think that you have a lot of potential and I so appreciate that and love that.

Rissi Palmer (28:14.162)
But, know, we don't, that's not what we do. And we think that you would have more success over here in the pop side. So I ended up not taking that deal. So I continued to write in Nashville. I continued to work and play and do shows and all of that. nothing ended up happening until, like I said, until I was 26. And I ended up signing a deal with an independent record label.

And in doing so, I, excuse me, I signed this deal and started working with them, started working on a project and everything was great at first. it was, you know, everybody was really nice. Everybody was really kind. Everyone was excited and

I developed a really destructive, inappropriate relationship with the owner of the record label. And when I no longer wanted, when I felt like that particular relationship was no longer smart, and it was, was destructive, it was toxic. And when I was like, I need to extract myself,

from this situation. When I did so, it made the situation even more toxic. And on top of that, add on top of that, the record label was spending money at a just a rapid pace. And we were

You know, I was climbing the charts and things were good. And in the background, I didn't realize how crazy these financial obligations that I was, you know, obligating myself to how destructive that was going to be down the line. And, it all culminated in 2009, when I asked if I could be released.

Rissi Palmer (30:41.234)
from my record deal and was told no in no uncertain terms. And I ended up having to file bankruptcy. And so at the height of all these quote unquote great things happening to me, I had to walk away from my own career. And so I think

It was a really hard time. And so, but like, let's go back to like the good thing. So in the course of having this record deal, know, cool things that happened along the way, like Prince, for example, took an interest in me at one point when I was like 24 and would just sporadically drop in and say very Prince things and do them. And like, I never knew what I was going to hear from him. I never knew what was going to happen, but

It was such a great thing to happen to me. At the time that it happened, it was a godsend because he would say really positive things to me. Like, you're just a great writer. What are you working on? Let me hear what you're working on. And like that kind of thing. And I needed that. And I still need that. Like sometimes when things are really bad, I will go back to that memory of like, well, Girl Prince liked you, so what's the problem?

and, you know, I got to play shows with really cool people. when, once I was signed, I had two songs, three songs to chart on the billboard country charts. I was the first black woman to do that in 19 years in 2007. I played the grand old Opry. I got to play one of the first stage coach festivals. I did television. I played the white house.

I did, I did a lot of really amazing things. got to do a lot of amazing things and none of that would have been possible without the record label or without those first managers that I had. So I owe them a lot, a debt of gratitude for those things. And on the flip side of that, I owe them a lot of therapy bills for, for, you know, the aftermath of some of my choices. but I was a consenting adult.

Rissi Palmer (33:09.18)
through all of these choices. So I own the fact that I was an active participant in some really bad destructive choices.

I, like I, as I said, I filed bankruptcy in 2009 after signing the deal in 2006 and having the three songs and the videos and the touring and all that stuff. And they ended up fighting me in bankruptcy court. And so it turned into a trial. So what could have only ended, could have only taken like a couple months to be done now was an entire year.

and was a trial and depositions and all this kind of stuff. And at the same time, I lost my voice.

A of people don't know that I developed polyps on my vocal cords and it was from overwork. And I also, you know, I believe in God and I think there was a spiritual component to all this. I wasn't using my voice. Therefore, God silenced me for a minute until I realized the power of my voice.

and not just my singing voice, but like stand up for yourself. And I was hiding a lot of things. I was drinking, I wasn't taking care of myself. I was a mess. And because I couldn't perform because of my vocal cords, I had to get a regular job. So while my music is still climbing the charts, my videos are still playing on CMT.

Rissi Palmer (34:53.606)
I was working at a shoe store in Green Hills Mall in Nashville.

And I ended up getting out of my deal and being exonerated and granted the bankruptcy and thus getting out of the contract in 2010 because I told the truth. The stuff that I was trying to hide and the stuff that I was embarrassed by and ashamed of, do you see the theme?

Kim Rapach (35:28.215)
Yeah

Rissi Palmer (35:29.292)
Once I finally admitted it and said it in open court, my voice healed and I got out of the deal. And so I was released in 2010, in January of 2010, officially released the day before Thanksgiving in 2009.

Kim Rapach (35:40.109)
Wow.

Rissi Palmer (35:52.626)
I'd left Nashville. I'd moved home and was working a retail job, while I was awaiting the end of the trial. And, in that time I met my now ex-husband and, we got married in 2010. It was very quick and I was pregnant by the end of 2010. So 2010 was a big year for me and I.

Kim Rapach (36:19.918)
I'm sorry.

Rissi Palmer (36:21.65)
And I thought that I was going to retire. I had no desire to do music because I felt at the end of that trial, all the people that had been telling me, if you just get out of this record deal, I'll sign you. I'll work with you. Nobody was there.

And, I felt rejected and forgotten. And, you mentioned Mickey Guyton. Ironically, this was at the same time that she was moving to Nashville. So we, you know, we just missed each other in terms of like getting to know each other at that time, but she had gotten signed right as I was leaving. And I know that people were telling her.

Kim Rapach (36:53.742)
Mmm.

Rissi Palmer (37:07.644)
You don't want to be like Ritchie Palmer. So it was really big for her to say what she said about me because I know that I, that Ritchie Palmer was being used as a not nice burp. So, I left, I moved to North Carolina where I am now and had my first daughter and got the itch again to make music.

Kim Rapach (37:10.157)
Hmm.

Rissi Palmer (37:35.984)
because of going to baby music classes. And so I started going and teaching baby music class and I had so much fun. And I was like, I'm going to make a children's record because this feels like this is not going to harm me in any way, shape, form or fashion. And that was it. I just didn't want to be hurt anymore and disappointed anymore. And so I made a children's record.

Kim Rapach (38:01.56)
Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (38:06.896)
That is the most, one of the most therapeutic things that I've ever done. And it healed me in so many ways, like so many of the fears that I had about making music again. And it was all centered around my then baby, my now 13 year old, but yeah, it was beautiful. my ex-husband was so instrumental in helping to make that happen.

Kim Rapach (38:11.182)
Hmm.

Kim Rapach (38:35.15)
Mm.

Rissi Palmer (38:35.428)
and I will always be indebted to him for that. And so from there, I was like, okay, I feel like this isn't gonna kill me. So let's try to make adult music again. And I started, go ahead, I'm sorry.

Kim Rapach (38:51.246)
Well, can I just, I just want to know I just want to I'm sorry to interrupt. I just want to hit the point of the importance of listening to you when we were it ties back to our conversation earlier about the nervous system and healing when you said, okay, this isn't going to kill me. It's like, I'm attuned to my body. And now my body is telling me we're safe again. Like that's huge. That's huge.

Rissi Palmer (38:55.952)
No, no, no.

Rissi Palmer (39:12.656)
Yeah, that's exactly it. And it really was the process of making that record. I could say anything that I wanted to say. And I could do anything that I could be as silly as I wanted to be. And it was freeing. I think every artist should have a moment. If you're ever experiencing a creative block, you should make children's music.

Kim Rapach (39:20.792)
Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (39:43.452)
Like even just write it because there's no, can write a song. mean, I've written with kids and I've written songs about dolphins that fall in love with humans and like they call each other on their shell phones and like that kind of thing. like, but it's so good. And it opens you up cause you can say whatever you want to. And to me it was freeing cause music didn't always feel freeing.

It used to feel free, but there was a period of time where it did not feel free. And so that the children's record did that for me. And yeah, so then I started making independent music, recording albums. did four projects in total independently. And, you know, people started reaching out to me and asking me questions and artists would ask me, well, how did you do that? And how did you do this?

And so mentorship came along very organically. And I naturally just like to mother people and like having a kid has definitely enhanced the mothering part of me.

In 2019, had, in 2018, I started working on my last full length project, which was Revival, and I had a miscarriage. And it was an awful miscarriage. And so much pain and emotional pain and everything. And thank you. And,

Kim Rapach (41:16.558)
So sorry.

Rissi Palmer (41:25.258)
It made me stop working on the project. And I stopped for a long time. I stopped writing, I stopped doing everything. And then I found out I was pregnant with my now youngest shortly after that and started writing again and went into the studio, recorded that album. I'm thinking that 2019 is gonna be a big year for me for touring and all this. And then COVID happened. So at the top of 2020,

I still thought everything was going to be good and I had all these gigs booked and everything. And then we find out that we're going to be stuck in the house. And at the same time, George Floyd happened, Ahmaud Arbery happened, Sandra Bland happened. And it was also the 50th anniversary of Linda Martel, who was the first black woman to ever play the grand opry of her album, Coming Country. So.

I met Mickey, we did an interview together actually to talk about the 50th anniversary of Color Me Country. And in the course of that conversation, I was just like, I need to do something with this. Like we all should be talking about this. And so, you know, in between chasing a baby, a crawling baby and a then third grader, I started Color Me Country. I started working on what became Color Me Country.

And it was just supposed to be conversations, but it was a safe space conversation. Because early on I would do these interviews. I never really encountered black journalists in country music. So the feeling was I needed to make sure, I basically needed to make white people feel safe in all of my interviews. because all the question that everyone would ask me, well, have you experienced racism?

Kim Rapach (43:10.414)
Hmm.

Rissi Palmer (43:17.808)
Has it have people been, how's your time been in Nashville and blah, blah, blah. And I didn't want to say, yeah, there are microaggressions happening. Yes, people are telling me that I need to straighten my hair. Yes, people are telling me that I can't have a black love interest in my music video and like that kind of thing. But I don't want to say that. So I would just say everything was great. Even though I knew that that's not what was happening.

So I felt like it was really important to provide a place where other artists could say the things, the quiet part out loud. And that is all Color Me Country was supposed to be. I also didn't like the fact that everybody was writing about black country artists like they were only fabulous. Cause that's not true. And so I wanted there to be an oral history that showed that these people existed and exist.

Kim Rapach (44:03.278)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rissi Palmer (44:13.49)
so that we could stop doing that and that future generations wouldn't feel lonely. Like I felt lonely a lot in the very beginning of my career. And so that's how Color Me Country started and then it just kind of snowballed. Once Apple got a hold of it and became a show, then started getting national attention.

And, you know, first year we ended up in the Country Music Hall of Fame in an exhibit. I was in all the national publications. My creative partner, Kelly McCartney and I started the Color Me Country Artist Grant Fund in 2020, December 2020, and started giving grants. We've given over 85 grants to date.

and raised over $200,000. yeah, and just tried to provide a lot of opportunity for people that wasn't opportunity for me. And I'm trying to expand it now, it's a nonprofit. And there's a lot of different programming that I'm intending to do and roll out in 2025.

Kim Rapach (45:11.886)
Wow.

Rissi Palmer (45:38.284)
And yeah, I mean, I still make music. I'm working on an album right now. And it's just really important to me to be honest. And it's very important to me to be transparent about my journey. Because I don't want anybody to have the time. I don't want everybody to have the time that I had or the learning on the fly that I had to do.

And a lot of these instances don't make the same mistakes. Like I jokingly, I had a workshop called how to fail, how to fail at the music business, by Reese Palmer. And like, that's, it's a joke, but like, really I made some because of fear, because of hunger, because of fear of rejection, like a lot of stuff that didn't have anything to do with the situation.

at hand, had to do with what was going on internally with me. So yeah, so that's.

Kim Rapach (46:39.084)
Right. Well, that's why I wanted to talk to you. One of the many reasons, but you know, there's such a. Like submissive attitude that I think a lot of artists fall to because just that's the way the industry is. That's just the way it is. If you're going to make it, this is what you're going to have to do. You have to pay your dues, right? There's so much, if not all of that normalizes.

racism, abuse, assault, betrayal, manipulation. And it's my hope that if we do what you're doing, if we tell the truth and stop trying to protect people who are causing the harm, that eventually we will have a different industry. We will have a healthier industry.

Rissi Palmer (47:35.186)
100%. I think.

Yeah, I just think that the truth will set you free. And that's just the truth. We can't keep going the way that we've been going in the music business.

Kim Rapach (47:55.542)
But what's the saying that the truth will set you free but first it's gonna piss you off?

Rissi Palmer (48:00.082)
Yes, it'll make you angry and then it'll, and then you'll, and then you'll understand. Like then you'll feel better. But like until then, good Lord. So yeah, that's kind of where I am now.

Kim Rapach (48:07.746)
Great.

Yeah. I'm curious about, well, thank you. And I have more questions, but I'm curious about where you said, I wanted to make sure that I made white people feel okay. And I think about, you know, all of our conversation about the body. And, you know, there's a book called The Body Keeps the Score, and we know that trauma lives in ourselves. And so I'm wondering in that period of time, if you had any

Rissi Palmer (48:18.812)
Sure.

Rissi Palmer (48:29.756)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rapach (48:41.13)
experiences, you know, physical, physiological, mental, whatever, when you were trying to say, everything's fine, everything's great. But in this corner of the world where you're creating the space, you were able to tell the truth. Was there anything significant in that period of time?

Rissi Palmer (48:59.346)
Like that made me feel like now I want to tell it

Kim Rapach (49:04.29)
Well, that like your body went through or that you went through physiologically because you were

Rissi Palmer (49:08.946)
Becoming a mother.

Kim Rapach (49:12.15)
okay.

Rissi Palmer (49:14.416)
Becoming a

Yeah, it enhanced. mean, I've always kind of been a young old lady and like, you know, mothering my friends and all that kind of stuff. like having actual children and not wanting them to repeat my thought processes and like that kind of thing definitely was the switch.

Kim Rapach (49:45.09)
Yeah, you had mentioned earlier how you've got polyps on your throat when you weren't telling the truth. And I was wondering if anything else happened when you were going through that period of time as well as.

Rissi Palmer (49:50.237)
Mm-hmm.

Rissi Palmer (49:56.422)
I mean, tremendous amount of drinking. I drank a lot and, lot of drinking, lot of just very destructive behaviors. because I was unhappy and not only was I unhappy, but it was more so like,

I wasn't being myself.

So much of being, yeah, being signed was a blessing and a curse. Because on one hand, I'm so excited and I'm so happy that my dream is happening and that sort of thing. But like, there are people staying on top of your weight. There are people staying on top of the way your hair looks. There's people staying on top of, you have your makeup done? And...

Kim Rapach (50:26.648)
Thank you for saying that.

Rissi Palmer (50:52.908)
okay, well you're dating this guy, but we don't need people to know that you're dating this guy. And so, you know, don't go public or don't say anything. And so, and also the race thing, people kept telling me, keep your head down and don't talk about it. It's obvious that you're black. Don't talk about it. And, I was tired. I'm looking back on it now. I was tired, like, cause I was tired of fighting against the current.

all the time.

Kim Rapach (51:22.316)
Yeah. So many examples. Yeah. So many examples of you not being able to be you.

Rissi Palmer (51:24.466)
Because it was, it was hard.

Rissi Palmer (51:31.312)
Yeah, mean, yeah, that whole first that whole first part of my career, there was a lot of me there. Don't get me wrong. That's you definitely were getting greasy, but.

There was so much of me just trying to make everybody feel better about me.

Kim Rapach (52:00.91)
Thank you for sharing that.

Rissi Palmer (52:03.698)
Thank you. Yeah.

Kim Rapach (52:05.91)
I'm glad you're in a good place.

Rissi Palmer (52:08.402)
I'm still a work in progress. The divorce, divorce was very, was hard. And I wouldn't wish that on anybody. But.

Kim Rapach (52:13.047)
Aren't we all?

Rissi Palmer (52:32.376)
I'm

Rissi Palmer (52:38.16)
I'm really, I'm getting okay.

Rissi Palmer (52:44.338)
I'm getting okay. I'm getting to the point where I'm okay. Like I know I made the right decision as painful as it is. And I think that the thing that made it the hardest was my children.

Rissi Palmer (52:58.862)
I love my kids so much and I'm about to get emotional just even saying this out loud. Like I love my girls, they are my world and their safety and their happiness are paramount to me. So it was...

Rissi Palmer (53:22.17)
really a hard decision to make.

Rissi Palmer (53:26.948)
Especially coming from a two parent household like I did to take that away from them was really hard.

Kim Rapach (53:36.878)
Good job making the hard but right decision.

Rissi Palmer (53:40.912)
Yeah, like I said, call me. It really depends on what day you catch me. Because like on some days I'm good and then and then on some days I'm a mess. So it just really depends on the day you catch me. And I know that that's grief.

Kim Rapach (53:47.566)
Sure.

Kim Rapach (54:02.721)
inhuman.

Rissi Palmer (54:03.018)
And yeah, it's human and it's grief. And so I'm still working through it and I'm still trying to get a grip on it, but I'm way better than I was about a year ago.

Kim Rapach (54:19.246)
Yeah, yeah, healing takes time.

Kim Rapach (54:26.828)
And it's not linear.

Rissi Palmer (54:28.754)
No, it is not. I mean, you know, at this point, like by the time I die, I will be a grief specialist.

Just, I can't help but feel like that's a part of the lesson that I'm supposed to learn in this.

Kim Rapach (54:48.877)
Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (54:49.616)
I feel like we all have lessons, right? Or like themes, thematic things that we're doing in this life. And so I,

think that this, I think that grief is one of

Kim Rapach (55:08.834)
Yeah, absolutely. And I part of the reason for this podcast is because life is about life. Right. And it's about being human and going through those experience and those experiences and accepting, you know, your, roles and your mission and your gifts as how to have an impact. And sadly, we're teaching, you know, especially now more than ever, we're teaching young people that

And it's, been part of our society forever. But if you're successful, if you're wealthy, if you're on the top charts, if you're on the big stage, if you're at the grand old operate, whatever it is, if you're on the movie screen, you will have made it. And somehow we, we have this misnomer that that's going to take away the adversity of being human. And it doesn't, and we lose artists because they achieve, they do everything everybody tells them to do. And they work their asses off and they make it. And then they wake up and they're like, that's it.

Rissi Palmer (55:58.03)
It does not.

Kim Rapach (56:10.4)
And so, and then when we lose well-known, you know, celebrities, when we, when we lose artists, I think it makes it even harder for those who are not well-known because they're like, well, if, if he can make it, I can't make it. If, you know, because, we have to undo this idea. Like you were talking about lots of great things were happening. And for a lot of people, that's probably all they saw.

Rissi Palmer (56:29.116)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rapach (56:39.758)
They didn't know your soul was being crushed behind the scenes, right? And so again, I think these conversations are so important to normalize all of it. The ebbs and flows, not, don't want to normalize the dysfunction and the toxicity of the industry, but the human experiences. So many people think that, you know, if you're at a certain level in your career, then you have, you have no problems or you have no financial problems.

Rissi Palmer (56:39.974)
Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (56:43.41)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (57:06.262)
It couldn't be further from the truth. And so I really appreciate your honesty and your vulnerability.

Rissi Palmer (57:12.282)
No, thank you. No, I mean, I have nothing to lose at this point. like, that's the part that I try to tell my daughter all the time is like, that's what I'm trying to teach my children is that and teach myself at the same time. God, this is such a timely conversation because I just had a conversation with a very good friend of mine last night about how I am recovering.

Kim Rapach (57:24.227)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (57:36.398)
Hmm.

Rissi Palmer (57:41.276)
from a childhood that, and this wasn't at the hand of my parents, this was at the hands of a caregiver, where I learned in order to avoid anger and abuse and being treated a certain way that I had to...

Lie.

Rissi Palmer (58:11.504)
lie to protect myself, lie to not change the perception that someone had of me. And so I did. And I'm now an adult that has to really try hard. I don't think that I'm a habitual liar. Like, I don't think it's like that. It's not like pathological liar, but it is, God, this is really bad. Do I tell people? Yeah.

Kim Rapach (58:36.941)
Yep. Yep. And that's that nervous system. That's that nervous system that was conditioned so early on that says if you don't lie, or if you tell the truth, x, y, are going to happen and we're done. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's terror. And so everyone has something that they were conditioned on how to survive the world, right? We're born and in our little nervous systems are looking for

Rissi Palmer (58:49.03)
they're gonna hate you. Mm-hmm.

Kim Rapach (59:04.814)
the dangers at all times. It's very human. It's just part of who we are. And many of us pick up unhealthy patterns of, know, I have to make people laugh, or I have to, you know, tell a fib or I have to make people happy or I have to make people, you know, I have to people please, I have to help people in order to survive and we all have something. And so the fact that you even know that, and you're looking at that is such a game changer.

Because now you get to go back to that little version of yourself and just saying you get to tell the truth all the damn time. Every time. Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (59:39.194)
all the time, even when it's bad. so, I mean, look, I'm still, I'm still the people pleaser in recovery. So I, I'm good for a, my girlfriend, a joke. She's like, that's such a rhesism. Cause I'll try to put a spin on it. And I'm like, no, no, no, it's, it's like this, like, instead of saying that is not an attractive, I'll be like, look at your shirt.

Kim Rapach (59:43.33)
Yep

Kim Rapach (59:53.486)
You

Rissi Palmer (01:00:09.994)
Like I will still try to find, you know, still try to find the good, that's me, but I'm not going to flat out lie anymore. So yeah, I fight. Yeah. Yes.

Kim Rapach (01:00:10.222)
You

Kim Rapach (01:00:18.54)
Yeah, yeah, good. Yeah, yeah.

Kim Rapach (01:00:24.012)
Yeah. Well, you said, you said, have at this point, have nothing to lose. And what came to me was when you have yourself, you have nothing to lose. It's what you're not yourself, or you're trying to please other people, or you're, just not attuned to yourself, then you have everything to lose. But when you've got your own back, and you're also raising kids, like you, you don't have anything to lose because you have

Rissi Palmer (01:00:36.112)
Yes. that's great. Yeah.

Kim Rapach (01:00:51.692)
yourself and at the end of the day that's what matters most.

Rissi Palmer (01:00:54.642)
Yes, 100%. Yeah.

Kim Rapach (01:00:58.648)
So we have talked about your story. We have talked about your trauma. We've talked about your career, your philanthropy. I would like to, if you don't mind, I would like to talk about your mental health. And by that, I mean, do you have any tips or non-negotiables that you do on a regular basis that help you? I know you go to therapy. Do you have anything else that you do that helps you care for your mental health?

Rissi Palmer (01:01:28.2)
that's a great question.

Rissi Palmer (01:01:36.134)
Well, okay, so one practice that I started that has been really great, and mind you, I realize that it's a very privileged thing to be able to do, but it is sure saved my life, is self-care practices that are non-negotiable. So when I was going through my separation and I knew that it was going to eventually turn into a divorce,

one of my best friends who is a counselor by the way, which is funny. I told her, I was like all the free, all the free therapy that I get as a result of our friendship. But anyway, she said, I need you to get a, a self care practice.

And I said, okay. And she said, you need to be taking care of yourself because this is going to be hard. And I know you, it's going to be hard. And so I got a membership to hand in stone and you know, it's $79 a month, but it obligates me to stop what I'm doing once a month, cause you don't want to waste your money. So once a month, I am obligated to go get a massage.

Kim Rapach (01:02:54.712)
That's right.

Rissi Palmer (01:02:59.632)
or to get a facial. And not only is it great for my job, you know, my skin looks great because for my work, but for an hour, nobody's asking me to make a sandwich. Nobody is telling me, you know, a hard story. I'm not hearing no, I'm not worried about deadlines. I'm worried about anything. I'm just laying down and taking care of myself. I have started journaling.

Kim Rapach (01:03:25.58)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (01:03:29.357)
Hmm.

Rissi Palmer (01:03:30.352)
I'm trying to do, so next year is my year of no. 2025 is going to be my year of no. And I journal every night now. I used to not. And I'm just taking a lot of time, like what's going on? Like, what are you thinking about? What's happening in your head? Then I read a lot.

I a lot. And that just helps with escapism. That's what I did as a kid. And that was my happy place, was in books.

Kim Rapach (01:04:14.038)
It's so calming.

Rissi Palmer (01:04:15.428)
It is. And just really try to shut out social media. Like social media is really, it's hard for a lot of reasons. I think it's hard for musicians because all you see is like a highlight reel of other musicians and all the cool things that they're doing and that you're not getting to do. And so you're just like, I'm missing out clearly. And,

So I take periodic breaks. Like I think I'm going to go on one in the next week, honestly, because of the election and everything that is coming up.

Kim Rapach (01:04:53.41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rissi Palmer (01:04:56.37)
I need a break. So yeah, so I try to, when I start to feel overwhelmed and I pray, I pray a lot. My relationship with God, I'm trying to strengthen that because that's a centerpiece for me and always has been. And my divorce, I think my spiritual life took a hit during that as well because I felt again guilt. And so I was just like, why would God want to talk to me?

Kim Rapach (01:04:57.816)
Mm-hmm.

Rissi Palmer (01:05:25.394)
Like this is some of the stuff that was going on in my head and I'm just like, you're about to break a commitment that you did in front of God. And,

Why would God want to bless you when you're doing something like that? And, you know, in my, in my right mind, I know that God is a merciful God and God is a God of grace. And,

there's nothing that you can do to, because his love for us is unconditional, there's nothing that you could do, but like, couldn't, I didn't feel that because of my own stuff. And so I'm trying to rebuild that relationship right now. So that's a big part too.

Kim Rapach (01:06:12.504)
Yeah, yeah, those are beautiful.

Rissi Palmer (01:06:17.33)
I'm trying. Like I really am. I, so many people are like, Reese, you just have it all together. No, I don't. I am a mess just like you. You're like everybody. So I'm trying really hard to just, I call it stop the bleeding.

Kim Rapach (01:06:36.77)
Yeah.

Well, we define a warrior as someone who fights for themselves so that they can show up for everybody else. And artists are, you know, prone to giving everything away and not taking care of themselves and showing up for everybody else and trying to please the masses. And so the fact that you're sitting here, you know, sharing your story, but also committed to taking care of yourself.

and listening and healing and all the things that you're doing from therapy to self care really is the definition of a warrior.

Rissi Palmer (01:07:13.65)
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Like I said, I'm definitely a work in progress and I'm trying. As much as social media does, I think that too is another self care practice in a way of trying to...

Rissi Palmer (01:07:36.686)
make sure that I don't present anything that is not realistic.

Kim Rapach (01:07:42.082)
Mm-hmm.

Rissi Palmer (01:07:43.25)
Because I don't want anybody looking at me and thinking, I want to be that. Like she has a perfect life. And feeling bad about their own because it's not the thing. It's not, it doesn't look like mine.

Kim Rapach (01:07:59.766)
Right. Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (01:08:00.594)
And it's like, well, honey, we got dirty clothes over here. and, know, I haven't cooked in a week and like after, you know, I'm going to go lay down and like, you know what saying? Like, I just, I want people to know that that's really important.

Kim Rapach (01:08:04.067)
Yep.

Kim Rapach (01:08:11.382)
Yep. Yeah.

Yeah, well, and I want to normalize that part of the conversation to where you said, you know, I'm a work in progress. Hopefully we all are there. There isn't an arrival point. I don't want to stop evolving. I want to know more and understand myself better five years from now than I do today. I don't want to be the same version of myself in the future. I want to be future me right. That just means that we're living and learning and growing and you know, like you said, growing closer to God like these are

Rissi Palmer (01:08:23.546)
Yeah, right.

Rissi Palmer (01:08:37.743)
I'm home!

Kim Rapach (01:08:44.94)
This is humaning.

Rissi Palmer (01:08:47.25)
Yeah, it is, it is.

Yeah, I think, yeah, God, that's a really great point in that so much of this life is coming to terms with your humanness.

Kim Rapach (01:09:03.18)
Mm-hmm.

Rissi Palmer (01:09:05.35)
and being okay with your humanness. Like, I am a mess. And I, you know, I am also kind and sometimes I'm not nice and sometimes I'm tired and sometimes I'm full of energy. Sometimes I am extremely generous and sometimes I'm stingy. And you know what saying? And like, and accepting all of those things about yourself.

and being okay with that. Like I am, yeah, having kindness and compassion for yourself in the fact that these are all the pieces of me and all of these pieces are okay.

Kim Rapach (01:09:37.292)
Yeah, kindness and compassion.

Kim Rapach (01:09:52.846)
And think of how that serves other people. If you showed up, like we do online with, you know, all of the filters and all the highlight reels, it doesn't help anyone. In fact, I think it's, it's hurtful and it's harmful because it takes away other people's human experience. And so I'm just so inspired by your willingness to show up authentically.

Rissi Palmer (01:10:10.706)
100 %

Rissi Palmer (01:10:17.01)
Like I said, I'm trying. Like it's, it's, it's hard, especially, especially when you're in the music business, because I'm so used to put your good foot forward. You know what saying? Put on some lipstick and, and, and, and show up and be, you know, the beautiful, made up, well put together human being that everybody expects you to be. And sometimes I'm just not her.

Kim Rapach (01:10:47.778)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (01:10:48.956)
Sometimes I am just not her.

Kim Rapach (01:10:54.038)
I love that. Yeah, it absolutely is.

Rissi Palmer (01:10:54.402)
And that's okay. But on the days when I am, like, you know, I'm on, but when I'm not, it's okay to not be.

Kim Rapach (01:11:08.526)
So another question, if you have a few more minutes, what would you say if someone were listening to this and they were struggling with their mental health and they were listening to this, what would you say to them? What would you want them to hear?

Rissi Palmer (01:11:12.21)
Sure.

Rissi Palmer (01:11:27.858)
that number one, it's okay that you are not alone in your struggles and that, it's okay to ask for help in these struggles and, that

Really just don't allow the shame and stigma of struggling prevent you from seeking help and getting better.

Rissi Palmer (01:12:04.018)
because I've seen that play out in real time in my, in my life, not with me, but with, the people in my life. And it's, ugly and it's hard.

Kim Rapach (01:12:15.662)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, me too. I've lost loved ones. Yeah. Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (01:12:22.022)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, people die because of that. And so I don't want to.

I don't want that to be the case for people anymore. Not these people that I care about.

Kim Rapach (01:12:48.184)
Well, I always say when the world is upside down, it's the artists who save us. so conversations like this, and you it's my hope that will help save artists. So thank you.

Rissi Palmer (01:13:01.102)
I hope so.

No, thank you so much. Thank you for having me and thank you for doing this. Because this is it's important. To have these conversations and it's OK to feel. OK, and I'm so glad I live in this time.

Kim Rapach (01:13:09.995)
Hmm.

Kim Rapach (01:13:14.445)
Yeah.

Rissi Palmer (01:13:24.142)
where we can talk about this stuff.

Rissi Palmer (01:13:32.24)
because it used to not be like that. Yeah, so thank you for doing that.

Kim Rapach (01:13:32.642)
Well, thank you for being here.

Yeah, absolutely. I really appreciate you being here. We'll keep in touch. All right. All right, thanks, Recy. I'm going to stop the recording.

Rissi Palmer (01:13:41.05)
Yes, absolutely.

Thank you.